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and then there's john hill's uh golf

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game he is reported to have once claimed

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to have shot a 38

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under par round as you might expect no

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highlights uh to bring you from that

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round

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that's a news report from cnn well i

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guess if you can call

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what cnn does is news

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but anyways it's about obviously this

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fantastic golf round

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of the dear leader kim jong-il the

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the late great kim jong-il and it's a

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funny story

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and i thought it'd be kind of an

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interesting capstone to

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episode 500 of skeptico

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and in this episode of course you're

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going to hear a lot of the same stuff

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like it or not that you've grown

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accustomed to with skeptico

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a clip will explain my point is you got

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your book

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wrong it's not that science needs

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spirituality science is doing

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everything it can to keep

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spirituality infiltrating where they're

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trying to go

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so what i'm saying this is that you can

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sort of trace materialism to his

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historical factors cultural factors

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which are not necessarily linked to you

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know the social engineering process

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that is by the way our very excellent

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guest dr steve taylor who is a terrific

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guy

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and we really sinked on a lot of things

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but

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not so much and some other things again

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what you've come to expect with skeptico

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but i want to get back to the golf story

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because it's very skeptical

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as well first off i gotta tell you you

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haven't heard the clip that first

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introduced me to the golf story i didn't

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even know this

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thing about kim jong-il but a couple

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episodes

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back which will be coming up because the

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order that i'm putting these out

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is a little out of sequence matt whitman

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a guest from the 10 minute bible hour

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terrific guest really loved having this

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guy and

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anyways we're talking about the

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credibility of different sources

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and he brought up as an example yeah

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well of course i mean

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no one would believe the north korean

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government issuing a press police saying

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that kim jong-il

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shot 38 under power including by the way

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five hole-in-ones

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on that round so we laughed and got our

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chuckle made the point kind of moved on

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but as i a lot of times do i got to

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thinking about that i said

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is that really a real story

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how did it come down and the reason i

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did it as i've explained so many times

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on this show is that a bit

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duped so the first thing i did is just a

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quick google search

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is this really a story that's out there

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and yeah it's this

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story that's turned into this meme and

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it's kind of echo chamber

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example of how wacky north korea is so

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next layer down i found a link

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five top fake news stories about north

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korea

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and like this is really interesting i

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don't know how to make this any quicker

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i'll try and make it as quick as i can

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but in these five myths what they start

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out with they're number five

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on the list is north korea beat brazil

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in the world cup and won the world cup

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and then they go on to say

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how this isn't really a myth inside of

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north korea the north korean people

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don't really believe they won the world

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cup by beating brazil

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they were just very very proud that they

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even made the world cup it was actually

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shocking to the whole world

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that they did back in 2010 north korea

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did represent their country in the world

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cup so

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right off the bat i'm curious wow that

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does seem like a

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myth that they have debunked so then i

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continue to scroll down it's the usual

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stuff

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but number one on their list kim jong il

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scored a 36 hit golf

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youngpioneertours.com

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this is our favorite quite simply

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because it is the godfather of

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all north korean urban legends

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and then they end with this again the

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only problem with this story

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is that it was concocted outside of

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north korea

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and it was never ever yes never ever

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said

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in the country a fake story but great at

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setting the benchmark for how outrageous

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a story you can make before someone

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yells shenanigans

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one of my favorite words here

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shenanigans

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so i'm like wow that's curious

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who are these guys go to the about

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section

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young pioneer tours is an adventure

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travel company formed in 2008

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based in mainland china specializing in

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north korean

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tours renowned and rated as one of the

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best north korean travel operators with

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our unparalleled experience

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fun way of doing things and most

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importantly their words excellent

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relations

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in the country oh good you got excellent

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relations

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now i'm starting to wonder about the

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golf story

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and through the magic of a duckduckgo

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search we

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arrived at the website of

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eric ellis who in 1994 was a foreign

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correspondent for

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australian financial review

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and visited a pyongyang golf club

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and played around which is kind of a

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long story he had to kind of fake kind

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of credentials or what he was doing or

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some kind of stuff that you have to do

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all this crazy stuff

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anyways as part of playing the round he

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meets the i guess you could say

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golf pro and in their conversation

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the guy says dear leader comrade general

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kim jong-il

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was a hell of a golfer as a matter of

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fact you know he shot a 34 on this

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course including

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five holes in one so there you have it

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there is the source of the story

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and it really did come from north korea

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so it kind of debunks

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our pioneering tour friends whatever

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but the story isn't over see the story's

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never over

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that's what's skeptical has taught me

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but still

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at least the story ain't over when you

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think it's over

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because here's what else you can find if

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you search on this story

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this is from golf.com very respected and

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i feel the golf

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josh sends june 1st 2016.

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titled the article behind kim jong-il's

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famous

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round of golf and he does the usual

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yuck it up with the u.s open fast

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approaching i'd like to set the record

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straight

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on one of history's most astounding

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rounds of golf

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blah blah blah and then he says not

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johnny miller not jack nicholas and he

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goes kim jong-il

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you get the story get set up but here's

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the thing he goes on to say

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how he recently was in north korea

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went to the golf course i could say

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vehicle of course because there's only

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one golf course

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did a similar kind of thing that ellis

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did kind of faked his way on

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but here's the point of the story i read

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from his article

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a group of smiling caddies greeted us

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outside the clubhouse

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so did the club manager a stern-faced

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chain-smokey man in a brown suit and a

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cap with a red star above its bill

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after some cajoling through an

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interpreter he agreed to field some of

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my questions

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the first was a no-brainer had he

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witnessed

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the dear leaders fabled round he

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chuckled but said nothing

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what about the record-shattering score

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and those

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unforgettable five holes in one this

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time

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to my surprise he answered

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he was of course a staggering golf

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talent

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possessed of an enchantingly rhythmic

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swing

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but even for a player of his abilities

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five aces

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holes in one in one round were out of

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reach how that stat had entered into the

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official record was pretty simple the

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manager said

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the scorekeeper tracking kim's round

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that day

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had relied on a relative to par system

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marking down zeros for par one for

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bogeys and two for double bogeys

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unfamiliar with the scorekeeping

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shorthand the north korean state news

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agency covering the outing

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had read the five ones on kim's card

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as holes in one now he goes on to say

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forget the fact that kim a ranked

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beginner probably never sniffed a bogey

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all day long blah blah blah

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which is kind of interesting but it's

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gonna kind of throw us

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off track because believe it or not

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there's another twist to this story

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there's a skeptical moment

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in this story and we've almost gotten

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there because when you hear that

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explanation

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i said you there but i'm gonna say me

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when i heard that explanation

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i was like oh okay that's it that

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that explains it i mean it's outrageous

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the whole thing was outrageous

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the scorecard keeper made a mistake

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a stupid mistake that no one would make

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if they had knew anything about golf or

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would repeat if they knew anything about

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golf but

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a more believable mistake but now

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because i've been duped so many times

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and because

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in the process i've developed a little

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bit of spidey senses on this

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this thing sat with me for a while

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and then it suddenly dawned on me

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no this is upon

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upon and i thought of a couple

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of things that i thought i read

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in ellis's original article so i had to

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go back

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and here's what ellis originally wrote

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and remember

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eric ellis is the guy who starts this

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whole story there is no story before him

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so one of the things he says is that

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when he lined up at the first hole a 340

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meter dog like par

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four the golf pro the golf manager

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whatever

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said kim jon ill scored a two

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on this hole and the golf pro explains

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that the deer leader

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shot a 34 including five

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holes in one and no hole worse than a

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birdie it is one under par

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so wait a minute what about the two kids

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in china who have quote unquote

284
00:10:11,030 --> 00:10:08,720
excellent relations with north korea

285
00:10:12,710 --> 00:10:11,040
and insist that no north korean ever

286
00:10:14,150 --> 00:10:12,720
said this story it didn't originate from

287
00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:14,160
them well if you're following the story

288
00:10:16,710 --> 00:10:15,760
that was out long ago but i just want to

289
00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:16,720
remind you

290
00:10:21,190 --> 00:10:19,360
but what about the guy from golf.com

291
00:10:24,310 --> 00:10:21,200
from golf magazine who gets

292
00:10:27,110 --> 00:10:24,320
duped right he gets duped

293
00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:27,120
he goes there and the interpreter says

294
00:10:29,590 --> 00:10:29,040
oh well you know yeah that is pretty

295
00:10:33,590 --> 00:10:29,600
crazy

296
00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:33,600
turns out it was a scoring year no

297
00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:37,350
it wasn't a scoring year it's just

298
00:10:43,269 --> 00:10:40,150
it's just propaganda it's just

299
00:10:44,710 --> 00:10:43,279
controlling the message

300
00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:44,720
so my takeaway from this story is

301
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:46,480
twofold one

302
00:10:50,069 --> 00:10:47,760
there's people who like to screw with

303
00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:50,079
the truth for all sorts of different

304
00:10:53,030 --> 00:10:51,040
reasons

305
00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:53,040
and sometimes they're very nefarious it

306
00:10:56,230 --> 00:10:54,320
still boggles the mind of everyone

307
00:10:57,190 --> 00:10:56,240
listening to the show that there is such

308
00:10:59,990 --> 00:10:57,200
a thing

309
00:11:01,269 --> 00:11:00,000
as north korea that has mind controlled

310
00:11:02,790 --> 00:11:01,279
and imprisoned

311
00:11:04,630 --> 00:11:02,800
so many millions of people while the

312
00:11:06,310 --> 00:11:04,640
rest of the world just stands by with a

313
00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:06,320
so it goes kind of attitude

314
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:08,800
but number two and i guess relevant to

315
00:11:14,230 --> 00:11:10,320
skeptical 500

316
00:11:16,150 --> 00:11:14,240
is follow the data wherever it leads

317
00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:16,160
even if it takes a really long story to

318
00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:17,920
get there

319
00:11:21,509 --> 00:11:20,000
so if i can let me segue back to this

320
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:21,519
interview coming up

321
00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:24,560
with dr steve taylor because i did push

322
00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:24,800
on

323
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:26,720
them really hard but as you hear it

324
00:11:33,030 --> 00:11:28,880
turns out

325
00:11:37,190 --> 00:11:33,040
steve is an incredibly deep spiritual

326
00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:37,200
journeyer and has a wisdom about him

327
00:11:42,710 --> 00:11:40,320
that goes way way beyond

328
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:42,720
my rattling on about scientism and

329
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:43,920
parapolitics

330
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:45,360
let me play you another clip from this

331
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:47,920
interview a poem

332
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:51,839
by dr steve taylor if you had to sum up

333
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:54,160
russell's teaching in a couple of

334
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:54,959
sentences

335
00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:57,680
what would it be yeah well actually i

336
00:12:00,949 --> 00:11:58,720
wrote a poem

337
00:12:01,910 --> 00:12:00,959
based on one of his teachings and the

338
00:12:05,829 --> 00:12:01,920
poem is called

339
00:12:10,230 --> 00:12:05,839
be soft so this is be soft

340
00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:10,240
based on russell williams's teaching be

341
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:11,600
soft

342
00:12:15,030 --> 00:12:13,440
so that your mind doesn't clash with

343
00:12:16,949 --> 00:12:15,040
reality

344
00:12:18,710 --> 00:12:16,959
and you can absorb your experience with

345
00:12:21,750 --> 00:12:18,720
ease

346
00:12:24,069 --> 00:12:21,760
be soft so that disappointments and

347
00:12:26,949 --> 00:12:24,079
insults don't bruise you

348
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:26,959
but bounce harmlessly away after your

349
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:30,480
softness has absorbed their force

350
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:33,760
be soft so that thoughts don't turn to

351
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:35,760
fixed ideas

352
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:37,600
and emotions throw through you without

353
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:39,440
attaching themselves

354
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:41,440
and animosity doesn't longer long enough

355
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:43,600
to form a grudge

356
00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:46,560
and pain passes away before turning to

357
00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:52,310
be soft so that you can bend with the

358
00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:55,120
wind without breaking

359
00:13:00,550 --> 00:12:57,279
and become moist with the rain without

360
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:03,670
be soft so that you pass through the

361
00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:06,399
world without leaving damage

362
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:08,880
only the lightest of trails that will

363
00:13:18,829 --> 00:13:11,600
dissolve like a cloud

364
00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:21,350
breathes

365
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,120
welcome to skeptica where we explore

366
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:25,279
controversial science and spirituality

367
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:27,760
with leading researchers thinkers

368
00:13:31,269 --> 00:13:29,760
and their critics i'm your host alex

369
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:31,279
karis and today

370
00:13:37,509 --> 00:13:34,320
we welcome steve taylored skeptico

371
00:13:39,670 --> 00:13:37,519
dr steve taylor is a senior lecturer

372
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:39,680
in psychology at leeds beckett

373
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:42,160
university in the in the uk

374
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:44,800
and chair of the trans-personal

375
00:13:49,269 --> 00:13:46,480
psychology section

376
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:49,279
of the british psychological society

377
00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:51,839
that sounds impressive it really does

378
00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:54,880
he's also a best-selling author i

379
00:13:59,910 --> 00:13:57,600
started a podcast he does a lot of media

380
00:14:02,629 --> 00:13:59,920
he hangs out with ecker tolley

381
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:02,639
and he does a lot of other cool stuff

382
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:03,120
steve

383
00:14:06,389 --> 00:14:05,279
welcome to skeptico thanks so much for

384
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:06,399
joining me

385
00:14:12,389 --> 00:14:09,760
thanks alex great to be with you so

386
00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:12,399
steve let's talk about this new book of

387
00:14:17,069 --> 00:14:13,760
yours

388
00:14:18,550 --> 00:14:17,079
spiritual science why science needs

389
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:18,560
spirituality

390
00:14:23,189 --> 00:14:21,600
to make sense of the world so

391
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:23,199
uh let's dive right into it why don't

392
00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:25,760
you tell people the basic premise where

393
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:26,639
you're coming from

394
00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:29,279
and and you know maybe before that even

395
00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:30,000
fill in a little

396
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:32,560
bit more of your background i kind of

397
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:34,240
gave a sketch but you really

398
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:36,639
are are out there you've had a lot of

399
00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:37,760
accomplishments

400
00:14:42,790 --> 00:14:40,720
a lot of recognition in terms of some of

401
00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:42,800
the terrific books you've written

402
00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:45,519
you've really written a number of very

403
00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:47,360
popular well-received books

404
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:49,680
i'm bringing up here the leap clear

405
00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:51,360
light which is also the title of your

406
00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:52,720
podcast

407
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:55,920
waking from sleep so a lot of cool stuff

408
00:15:00,590 --> 00:14:56,959
and you have a website

409
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:00,600
very nicely done steve taylor

410
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:03,519
spirituality and psychology

411
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:06,720
so there's a lot too what's going on

412
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:08,560
with steve taylor tell us more about

413
00:15:12,949 --> 00:15:09,680
your background

414
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:12,959
and then we can dive into this book

415
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:15,120
okay uh well my background is quite kind

416
00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:17,279
of ordinary i'm from sort of a

417
00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:20,240
my family was kind of working class um i

418
00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:20,560
didn't

419
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:24,399
spirituality in my background

420
00:15:27,990 --> 00:15:25,519
but i must have had a kind of

421
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:28,000
instinctive impulsive spirituality

422
00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:30,800
in my nature because at the age of 16 or

423
00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:31,519
17

424
00:15:35,749 --> 00:15:33,920
i began to be interested in spirituality

425
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:35,759
i started to have what i recognize now

426
00:15:40,069 --> 00:15:37,920
are spiritual type experiences of

427
00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:40,079
expansion and connection

428
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:43,519
and kind of upliftment and euphoria

429
00:15:46,629 --> 00:15:45,040
but i didn't understand the experiences

430
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:46,639
at the time really i felt

431
00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:47,680
i thought maybe there was something

432
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:49,040
wrong with me but maybe i was a bit

433
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:50,240
crazy

434
00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:52,480
but it was only later on when i began to

435
00:15:56,069 --> 00:15:54,560
you know read into read about mystical

436
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:56,079
experiences

437
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:58,079
when i began to look into trans personal

438
00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:59,440
psychology

439
00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:00,880
then i realized that i could make sense

440
00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:02,639
of my experiences i realized that i was

441
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,160
having kind of you know

442
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:06,079
you know that kind of gave me a context

443
00:16:10,949 --> 00:16:08,560
to make sense of my own experiences

444
00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:10,959
so later on um i was i was originally a

445
00:16:15,749 --> 00:16:12,480
musician for quite a long time

446
00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:15,759
but later on i decided i wanted to go

447
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:18,000
back into education to become a

448
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:18,800
psychologist

449
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:21,360
to try to understand these experiences

450
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:22,800
that i'd had

451
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:24,880
and then i found out about you know the

452
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:26,880
field of transportation psychology and

453
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:28,560
how it links eastern philosophy and

454
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:30,160
western psychology

455
00:16:33,269 --> 00:16:32,160
and that was my i realized straight away

456
00:16:34,949 --> 00:16:33,279
that was my home that was where i

457
00:16:37,749 --> 00:16:34,959
belonged in academia

458
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:37,759
so i did a master's degree and i've

459
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:39,680
always been interested in researching

460
00:16:43,509 --> 00:16:42,079
you know transformational experiences or

461
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:43,519
as i call them awakening

462
00:16:47,590 --> 00:16:45,600
experiences but at the same time you

463
00:16:50,790 --> 00:16:47,600
know being involved in academia

464
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:50,800
i've been very aware of the scientism

465
00:16:53,430 --> 00:16:52,639
and the materialism which is inherent in

466
00:16:55,509 --> 00:16:53,440
academia

467
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:55,519
which kind of pervades the academic

468
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:57,279
establishment so if you have sort of

469
00:17:01,990 --> 00:16:59,759
esoteric views if you believe in the

470
00:17:04,309 --> 00:17:02,000
existence of psy phenomena for example

471
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:04,319
you're kind of like a bit of an outcast

472
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:05,839
you know you you're not really supposed

473
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:07,520
to speak about these things in academia

474
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:08,880
so i've always been very aware of the

475
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:11,280
kind of scientism which is inbuilt

476
00:17:15,669 --> 00:17:14,079
within academia and as time has gone by

477
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:15,679
i've been sort of rebelling against that

478
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:16,959
i've been you know involved more and

479
00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:17,280
more

480
00:17:21,429 --> 00:17:20,160
into uh with investigating anomalous

481
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:21,439
phenomena

482
00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:23,600
and i've also been involved in

483
00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:25,360
investigating the assumptions which lie

484
00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:26,079
behind

485
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:29,120
materialism and scientism so now i kind

486
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:31,039
of affiliate myself with the uh

487
00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:32,000
i guess you could call it the

488
00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:34,720
post-materialist movement which tries to

489
00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:36,880
you know examine the assumptions of

490
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:38,400
materialist science and try to move

491
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:39,440
beyond them

492
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:42,720
in order to create a a better paradigm

493
00:17:47,830 --> 00:17:45,280
which makes more sense of reality

494
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:47,840
great and that is basically what this

495
00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:48,799
new book is about

496
00:17:51,990 --> 00:17:50,799
spiritual science why science needs

497
00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:52,000
spirituality

498
00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:54,320
to make sense of the world once you uh

499
00:17:58,310 --> 00:17:56,080
sketch out for people

500
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:58,320
kind of where you're going with with

501
00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:00,000
your theory that kind of

502
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:03,200
threads the needle between materialism

503
00:18:07,430 --> 00:18:05,600
and pan psychism and

504
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:07,440
there's no there's a third way you're

505
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:08,640
saying

506
00:18:11,830 --> 00:18:11,520
that's right um well first of all you

507
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:11,840
know

508
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:14,080
the book is mainly or partly about how

509
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,120
materialism

510
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:17,840
cannot explain the world or human

511
00:18:21,029 --> 00:18:18,480
experience

512
00:18:22,549 --> 00:18:21,039
it kind of explains several basic

513
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:22,559
aspects of human experience such as

514
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:23,919
consciousness

515
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:26,880
such as altruism such as the influence

516
00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:27,120
of

517
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:29,919
the mind over the body and so on a

518
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:31,600
materialism cannot explain

519
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:34,080
you know seemingly esoteric phenomena

520
00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:36,000
such as near-death experiences spiritual

521
00:18:39,909 --> 00:18:37,600
experiences site phenomena

522
00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:39,919
it just disregards those experiences and

523
00:18:44,230 --> 00:18:41,600
tries to explain them away

524
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:44,240
in terms of fraud or coincidence and so

525
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:45,200
on

526
00:18:50,789 --> 00:18:49,360
materialism

527
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:50,799
but um it's not i think it's a very good

528
00:18:53,990 --> 00:18:52,799
alternative psychism basically says that

529
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:54,000
there is a

530
00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:55,280
i mean there are obviously lots of

531
00:18:58,870 --> 00:18:57,039
different forms of pancakes but the most

532
00:19:00,390 --> 00:18:58,880
sort of basic form of pancythism

533
00:19:03,029 --> 00:19:00,400
suggests that there is a

534
00:19:04,549 --> 00:19:03,039
a tiny element of mind in all material

535
00:19:06,150 --> 00:19:04,559
particles

536
00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:06,160
uh so atoms have a tiny sort of

537
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:08,000
flickering of consciousness

538
00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:10,480
or maybe the this kind of the uh the

539
00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:12,400
inner life of atoms is consciousness

540
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:15,120
atoms appear exterior externally as

541
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:16,320
physical entities but they have this

542
00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:18,000
kind of inward dimension

543
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:20,160
of consciousness but that doesn't really

544
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:21,760
help as much in terms of explaining

545
00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:23,039
reality

546
00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:25,840
um so i've suggested a philosophy which

547
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:28,000
i call pan-spiritism

548
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:30,960
and the basic idea of that is that the

549
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:31,600
you know the

550
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:34,000
the ground reality of the universe is

551
00:19:36,870 --> 00:19:34,960
spirit

552
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:36,880
or i sometimes call it fundamental

553
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:38,480
consciousness

554
00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:40,559
so everything emerges all material

555
00:19:43,110 --> 00:19:41,919
things emerge from fundamental

556
00:19:44,549 --> 00:19:43,120
consciousness

557
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,559
and human beings individual

558
00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:46,559
consciousness emerges from

559
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:48,720
fundamental consciousness our own

560
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:50,960
consciousness is an influx

561
00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:53,039
of the fundamental consciousness of the

562
00:19:57,510 --> 00:19:54,480
universe

563
00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:57,520
and the role of the brain as i see it

564
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:00,799
is to catalyze fundamental consciousness

565
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:03,840
into our own individual being so there's

566
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:05,360
a kind of a link to evolution there

567
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:07,200
because

568
00:20:10,789 --> 00:20:08,720
through the through the progression of

569
00:20:12,549 --> 00:20:10,799
evolution as living beings become more

570
00:20:15,669 --> 00:20:12,559
physically complex

571
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,679
they also become more uh

572
00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:17,600
conscious so there's a link between the

573
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:19,200
complexity of physical form and the

574
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:21,280
intensity of consciousness

575
00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:23,440
so with with us human beings we have

576
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:25,440
something like 100 billion blank brain

577
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:26,640
cells

578
00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:29,440
and that enables us to catalyze

579
00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:32,000
consciousness very intensely

580
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:33,760
so that our own individual consciousness

581
00:20:39,029 --> 00:20:35,280
becomes very intricate

582
00:20:40,310 --> 00:20:39,039
quite powerful and intense um

583
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:40,320
but there's obviously a future an

584
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:41,840
evolution evolution is obviously gonna

585
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:43,440
is obviously gonna continue

586
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:45,440
in the future so in the future there

587
00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:47,280
will be more complex living beings than

588
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:48,000
us

589
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:53,840
but my basic idea is that once you pos

590
00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:55,280
if you postulate a fundamental

591
00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:56,720
consciousness which is the essence of

592
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:57,919
reality

593
00:21:00,789 --> 00:20:59,200
then all of the things we've mentioned

594
00:21:02,390 --> 00:21:00,799
early become easy to explain you can

595
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:02,400
explain altruism

596
00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:03,679
you know you can have the basis for an

597
00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:05,600
explanation of consciousness

598
00:21:10,870 --> 00:21:08,960
and of sight phenomena and so on

599
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:10,880
you know i was kind of with you on the

600
00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:12,320
evolutionary

601
00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:14,240
aspect of consciousness right until the

602
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:16,240
end when you said where it's

603
00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:18,559
where it's going and i don't know so you

604
00:21:23,669 --> 00:21:20,480
know we've had quite a little email

605
00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:23,679
exchange prior to this

606
00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:26,080
interview because uh as you know i've

607
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:28,240
done so many shows

608
00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:31,360
on this scientism issue and on

609
00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:33,280
materialism and post materialism and all

610
00:21:36,789 --> 00:21:33,760
that

611
00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:36,799
and you know i wanted to kind of take

612
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:38,640
this in a slightly different direction

613
00:21:41,909 --> 00:21:40,960
as i outlined over and over again to you

614
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:41,919
in these emails

615
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:43,280
kind of trying to call off this

616
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,520
interview but let me

617
00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:47,360
share a story with you let me tell you a

618
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:48,720
story

619
00:21:52,870 --> 00:21:50,480
i did an interview a while back with a

620
00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:52,880
physicist named dr donald hoffman have

621
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:54,640
you ever heard of hoffman

622
00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:56,640
uh i'm not sure yeah it sounds familiar

623
00:22:00,870 --> 00:21:58,240
but i'm not familiar with his work

624
00:22:01,590 --> 00:22:00,880
well he he's quite a guy he's very well

625
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:01,600
respected

626
00:22:05,190 --> 00:22:03,919
in kind of mainstream science but he's

627
00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:05,200
also very

628
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:06,640
prominent in this kind of

629
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:08,480
post-materialist science

630
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:10,799
kind of community because he's that's

631
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:11,600
where he's

632
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:14,640
developed

633
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:16,720
a mathematical model of consciousness

634
00:22:21,669 --> 00:22:18,080
that he believes

635
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:21,679
shows mathematically undermines the

636
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:24,720
consciousness materialism that

637
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:26,000
we're kind of subjected to

638
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:27,600
so anyways i'm doing this interview with

639
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:29,840
him and i actually played him

640
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:32,880
uh a clip from your buddy eckhart tolle

641
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:33,280
because

642
00:22:37,590 --> 00:22:34,960
i love eckhart tolle i think he's

643
00:22:41,430 --> 00:22:37,600
wonderful and i particularly

644
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:41,440
like you know tully's let go of thinking

645
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:43,120
let go of knowing kind of

646
00:22:46,149 --> 00:22:44,880
idea i think it resonates with people

647
00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:46,159
immediately you know

648
00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:48,000
why do i need to hold on to this idea

649
00:22:51,350 --> 00:22:49,280
that i i know

650
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:51,360
something or that i that i'm thinking

651
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:52,880
i'm you know all that kind of stuff

652
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:56,159
so i lay that on on hoffman right and he

653
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:57,440
pauses for a minute and

654
00:23:00,630 --> 00:22:59,120
his tone really shifts now because we're

655
00:23:01,909 --> 00:23:00,640
talking about physics and all this

656
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:01,919
you know we're talking about

657
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:03,840
quantum physics and all this hardcore

658
00:23:06,870 --> 00:23:04,960
mathematical stuff

659
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:06,880
and now i've shifted into spirituality

660
00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:08,640
well he doesn't miss a beat

661
00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:11,200
he goes yeah because i really like and

662
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,720
respect totally

663
00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:14,559
listen to a lot of his lectures and he

664
00:23:19,669 --> 00:23:16,240
goes i spend

665
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:19,679
a portion of my day every day in silence

666
00:23:24,070 --> 00:23:22,080
because i think it's important but the

667
00:23:25,029 --> 00:23:24,080
question i'd really asked him was about

668
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:25,039
whether or not

669
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:28,320
his mathematical model

670
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:31,200
was yet another abstraction of something

671
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:31,600
that

672
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:33,760
is beyond abstraction because it's

673
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:35,039
fundamental

674
00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:38,960
right so he pauses and he goes

675
00:23:42,310 --> 00:23:40,640
you know i gave a lecture once and this

676
00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:42,320
guy came up to me at the end of the

677
00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:43,760
lecture

678
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:46,640
and he laid this roomy quote on me he

679
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:48,480
said the language of god

680
00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:52,000
is silence all else

681
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:55,600
is poor translation so this guy's really

682
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:57,120
starting to stick it to hoffman after a

683
00:23:59,510 --> 00:23:58,240
lecture you can only imagine you've

684
00:24:02,830 --> 00:23:59,520
probably had this happen

685
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:02,840
a couple of times yeah so so hoffman is

686
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:04,960
like

687
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:08,240
great totally get it

688
00:24:15,430 --> 00:24:12,000
and he says i could totally respect that

689
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:15,440
if and these are my words not his

690
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:19,200
people like you would shut the up

691
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:21,440
so if that's your point if your point is

692
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:24,080
silence then shut the up

693
00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:26,400
but here was his real point because he's

694
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:28,080
not that kind of

695
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:31,760
guy like i am he said look

696
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:35,520
i agree that consciousness is

697
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:36,720
fundamental

698
00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:39,600
i agree therefore that i understand the

699
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:40,320
silence

700
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:42,960
aspect of this but if we are going to

701
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:43,760
speak

702
00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:48,000
our ideas be known and we want to share

703
00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:49,760
those ideas

704
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:52,799
then i want to be as precise as possible

705
00:24:57,190 --> 00:24:55,039
that's what hoffman says i want to look

706
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:57,200
for mathematical models

707
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:00,240
that are as precise as possible

708
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:03,520
when i talk yeah and steve that was my

709
00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:04,799
pushback

710
00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:07,360
on you you know i mean i kept hitting

711
00:25:10,149 --> 00:25:08,240
you with

712
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:10,159
thing after thing and you're like oh i'm

713
00:25:12,789 --> 00:25:12,080
not so interested in that i don't know

714
00:25:15,669 --> 00:25:12,799
about that

715
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:15,679
and to me it seemed fundamental to

716
00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:17,840
really the premise of your book

717
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:20,880
your the subtitle of the book is why

718
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:23,760
science needs spirituality to make sense

719
00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:24,720
of the world

720
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:27,760
my counter to that is no

721
00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:30,799
science is doing everything they can

722
00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:32,880
and they have been doing everything they

723
00:25:37,870 --> 00:25:35,120
can for the last hundred years

724
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:37,880
to run away from spirituality to

725
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:39,360
systematically

726
00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:42,799
suppress control and

727
00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:45,760
you know obfuscate what is obvious is

728
00:25:50,549 --> 00:25:48,000
that we all have this greater

729
00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:50,559
consciousness this greater sense of

730
00:25:54,310 --> 00:25:52,080
connection with the divine

731
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:54,320
so this idea that we're going to kind of

732
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:55,200
that oh

733
00:25:58,549 --> 00:25:57,600
science is almost there let's cheer them

734
00:26:00,789 --> 00:25:58,559
on you know they're

735
00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:00,799
we're moving towards post materialism

736
00:26:05,029 --> 00:26:02,320
hell no

737
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:05,039
um yeah i agree i agree about the

738
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:05,840
silence

739
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:08,559
i mean william james when he he was one

740
00:26:11,909 --> 00:26:10,000
of the first psychologists to speak

741
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:11,919
about spiritual experiences or mystical

742
00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:13,919
experiences and he said that one of

743
00:26:16,149 --> 00:26:15,360
their characteristics is that they are

744
00:26:18,710 --> 00:26:16,159
ineffable

745
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:18,720
you can't describe them and you know

746
00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:19,760
there's the old

747
00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:21,360
zen saying that the finger that points

748
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:23,600
at the moon is not the moon so there's

749
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:25,120
no point trying to describe

750
00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:27,200
the moon but i'm not sure if that's

751
00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:28,159
completely true i mean

752
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:30,320
tolley's books for example they have a

753
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:31,200
very powerful

754
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:33,919
impact they're just words but they

755
00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:34,400
convey

756
00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:37,039
something which is beyond words and i've

757
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:38,159
met countless people

758
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,559
who've had spiritual experiences while

759
00:26:43,269 --> 00:26:42,080
reading his book

760
00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:43,279
and it is just words but there's

761
00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:45,919
something beyond those words which is

762
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:47,600
communicating through those words

763
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,279
so i think words can be a very powerful

764
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:51,600
channel music can do it too

765
00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:53,039
you know an art can do it they could

766
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:54,880
maybe they can do it better than words

767
00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:56,159
because they are you know they are

768
00:27:00,230 --> 00:26:58,640
non-verbal um

769
00:27:02,149 --> 00:27:00,240
and that's you know as as for the rest

770
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:02,159
of what you were saying i agree

771
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:03,919
that you know spirituality has been shut

772
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:05,279
out of science i think there's a there's

773
00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:06,240
a very big

774
00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:08,559
dichotomy between mainstream science

775
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:10,559
which is probably more materialistic

776
00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:11,840
than it's ever been

777
00:27:16,789 --> 00:27:14,440
before and this kind of emerging

778
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:16,799
post-materialistic science

779
00:27:20,070 --> 00:27:18,640
which is you know moving in a completely

780
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:20,080
different direction so there's i think

781
00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:22,000
there's a schism within science

782
00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:23,279
more and more scientists are trying to

783
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:26,880
hold on to this rigid cold materialism

784
00:27:31,430 --> 00:27:29,919
that says that we are just meat machines

785
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:31,440
and that our consciousness will end when

786
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:33,600
we die and that side phenomena cannot

787
00:27:36,389 --> 00:27:34,640
exist

788
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:36,399
maybe because they feel threatened by

789
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:38,880
this emerging post-materialist science

790
00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:40,559
they're clinging to their values more

791
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:42,320
strongly they're clinging to their

792
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:44,159
beliefs more strongly

793
00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:45,840
and a lot a lot of early scientists were

794
00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:47,279
quite spiritual guys you know like

795
00:27:50,789 --> 00:27:49,520
newton for example leibniz

796
00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:50,799
they were very kind of interested in

797
00:27:54,549 --> 00:27:52,640
metaphysics and religion and

798
00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:54,559
spirituality

799
00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:56,720
but yeah so i think science i think

800
00:27:58,950 --> 00:27:58,240
mainstream sites will at some point have

801
00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:58,960
to give way

802
00:28:02,710 --> 00:28:01,679
i think the momentum of post-materialism

803
00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:02,720
is building up

804
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:04,960
and sooner or later it will happen you

805
00:28:08,389 --> 00:28:05,840
know whether it's in

806
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:08,399
a few decades but at some point i'm sure

807
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:10,000
it will happen

808
00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:12,720
no i'm not sure it'll happen you know

809
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:13,679
the the counter

810
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:15,520
the counter hypothesis that i presented

811
00:28:18,389 --> 00:28:16,720
to you is to say

812
00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:18,399
look at remote viewing and look at

813
00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:20,080
stargate and

814
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:21,840
again we didn't seem to really connect

815
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:23,679
on this because you you seem to just

816
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:28,389
i didn't understand where you go where

817
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:29,440
you were going with that i understand

818
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:30,960
now i didn't understand the

819
00:28:34,149 --> 00:28:32,480
the meaning of your you know for the

820
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:34,159
sake for the sake of the audience

821
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:38,159
where i'm going now is in the 1950s they

822
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:38,880
started

823
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:42,399
mk ultra and and it wound up being over

824
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:43,440
150

825
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:46,240
at least programs in all of these

826
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:48,320
leading universities around the country

827
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:50,080
harvard had a prominent program

828
00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:52,720
northwestern had a prominent program

829
00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:54,799
and many others but the ones that you

830
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:56,320
know a lot of people in the

831
00:29:00,549 --> 00:28:58,640
in our community like to point to is

832
00:29:01,590 --> 00:29:00,559
what went on at stanford research

833
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:01,600
institute

834
00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:03,440
and the program stargate and a lot of

835
00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:05,200
people like to kind of

836
00:29:09,430 --> 00:29:08,080
carve stargate out of mk ultra because

837
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:09,440
mk ultra was so

838
00:29:14,389 --> 00:29:12,799
incredibly uh just evil you know in

839
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:14,399
terms of what they did and the mind

840
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:16,240
control they did on people and

841
00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:18,720
without consent to prisoners and

842
00:29:23,830 --> 00:29:20,240
unsuspecting people

843
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:23,840
but let's be clear stargate was

844
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:26,159
under mk ultra and when you listen to

845
00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:28,000
russell targ and hal put off

846
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:30,960
the two principal investigators they say

847
00:29:34,149 --> 00:29:31,520
yeah

848
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:34,159
so when sydney came sydney was our boss

849
00:29:39,190 --> 00:29:36,320
that is sydney gottlieb the

850
00:29:39,990 --> 00:29:39,200
us's mengele you know who ran the mk

851
00:29:43,029 --> 00:29:40,000
ultra program

852
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:43,039
and was well known for uh poisoning you

853
00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:44,320
know is the go-to guy

854
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:46,399
and administering poison like if you're

855
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:48,320
going to try and get castro and stuff

856
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:48,960
like that

857
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:50,640
all this stuff is in the record but

858
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:52,880
certainly people like to carve out

859
00:29:58,710 --> 00:29:55,919
uh stargate the remote viewing program

860
00:29:59,909 --> 00:29:58,720
as it's somehow different and it's it is

861
00:30:03,430 --> 00:29:59,919
but it's not

862
00:30:06,710 --> 00:30:03,440
but the point of all that is that

863
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:06,720
you know hal put off and russell targ

864
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:09,600
who are world-class scientists in their

865
00:30:13,029 --> 00:30:10,880
own right materialist

866
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:13,039
scientists if you want to call it that

867
00:30:16,909 --> 00:30:15,200
they weren't wringing their hands over

868
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:16,919
these questions of

869
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:20,000
materialism they were so far past

870
00:30:25,029 --> 00:30:22,640
that they had just they assumed that all

871
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:25,039
that is total

872
00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:26,880
and they went on and all the science

873
00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:28,640
that was done in connection with that

874
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:30,880
and when you look at all the the real

875
00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:32,159
kind of

876
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:34,880
deep deep state science that goes on

877
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:36,640
whether it's ufos or whether it's

878
00:30:42,149 --> 00:30:38,399
stargate or mk ultra

879
00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:42,159
none of that stuff they're way past

880
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,200
materialism so the idea that that

881
00:30:49,029 --> 00:30:47,600
you know gee golly gee you know if we

882
00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:49,039
could just convince

883
00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:52,240
you know uh neil degrasse tyson

884
00:30:55,510 --> 00:30:54,480
who by the way you know you said you saw

885
00:30:57,909 --> 00:30:55,520
the interview with

886
00:30:58,710 --> 00:30:57,919
uh bernardo castro where we got a good

887
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:58,720
chuckle

888
00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:01,200
on you know neil degrasse tyson who is

889
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:03,039
kind of one of the most public figures

890
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:04,880
in science in the u.s

891
00:31:09,669 --> 00:31:08,000
saying yeah you know consciousness i i

892
00:31:12,230 --> 00:31:09,679
think we're going to find it's nothing

893
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:12,240
which it's just absurdity i don't think

894
00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:14,159
it holds up to

895
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:17,440
to reasonably assume that they

896
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:20,240
are coming to that position logically

897
00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:21,200
and rationally

898
00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:22,960
it just doesn't it doesn't hold up to

899
00:31:27,190 --> 00:31:25,120
that in my opinion

900
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:27,200
yeah i mean you're talking about uh

901
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:28,320
specific programs

902
00:31:32,310 --> 00:31:30,399
some of which were quite a long time ago

903
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:32,320
um i mean i think there's the 70s was

904
00:31:34,870 --> 00:31:33,760
kind of like a slightly different era

905
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:34,880
because

906
00:31:38,789 --> 00:31:36,640
certainly in the late 60s there was this

907
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:38,799
wave of experimentation with

908
00:31:41,669 --> 00:31:40,399
psychedelics there was a wave of

909
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:41,679
interest in consciousness and

910
00:31:45,269 --> 00:31:42,720
spirituality

911
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:45,279
and that kind of permeated into science

912
00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:46,159
as well

913
00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:47,440
it was kind of like a little kind of

914
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:49,679
blip in the history of materialism when

915
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:51,360
when science became a little bit

916
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:52,720
less materialistic because of that

917
00:31:57,269 --> 00:31:55,200
influence but i think after that i think

918
00:31:59,110 --> 00:31:57,279
i mean i'm in the uk so i can maybe

919
00:32:01,029 --> 00:31:59,120
speak most clearly about the uk

920
00:32:02,470 --> 00:32:01,039
i mean why when i was in education in

921
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:02,480
the 70s and 80s

922
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:03,919
it was pure materialism you know the

923
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:05,200
whole education system was pure

924
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:06,240
materialism

925
00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:09,600
was kind of in the air there was

926
00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:11,919
you know this materialism was in the air

927
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:13,440
and everybody just sort of breathed it

928
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:14,880
in without realizing

929
00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:16,399
even me you know i remember when i was

930
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:18,080
um 18

931
00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:19,679
i went to i saw an advocate for

932
00:32:23,669 --> 00:32:21,840
meditation class at a local library

933
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:23,679
and i went along with my friend i

934
00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:25,440
remember the teacher saying

935
00:32:29,029 --> 00:32:27,600
um you are not your mind you are not

936
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:29,039
your brain you are your consciousness

937
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:29,279
and

938
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:32,480
i thought

939
00:32:35,990 --> 00:32:34,559
what the hell is he talking about what's

940
00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:36,000
this thing called consciousness

941
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:38,320
i assumed because of my education that i

942
00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:39,679
was just a brain

943
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:41,039
that my thoughts were just the products

944
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:43,360
of brain of the brain i assumed that was

945
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:45,440
nothing more than physical matter

946
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:48,000
so you know it just shows you how deeply

947
00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:48,880
ingrained

948
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:52,240
the materialist paradigm is um

949
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:55,600
and also um you know

950
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:57,279
it's it's in the media you know the the

951
00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:58,799
serious mainstream media

952
00:33:02,549 --> 00:33:00,399
in the uk and i think in the us2 is

953
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:02,559
totally imbued with materialism

954
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:04,240
you know sometimes some of the popular

955
00:33:08,630 --> 00:33:06,640
newspapers have stories about ndes

956
00:33:09,669 --> 00:33:08,640
or about side phenomena but kind of the

957
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:09,679
serious media

958
00:33:14,310 --> 00:33:12,240
is totally materialistic so what i'm

959
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:14,320
saying is it's not just a few scientists

960
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:15,760
it's the whole kind of atmosphere of our

961
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:16,559
culture

962
00:33:22,549 --> 00:33:20,000
that you know breathes um materialism

963
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:22,559
into our beings

964
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:24,720
i guess what i'm saying steve is and i

965
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:26,720
wanted you to respond to

966
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:29,120
it's been my conclusion and it took me a

967
00:33:32,870 --> 00:33:30,640
long time coming

968
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:32,880
100 interviews where i was kind of

969
00:33:37,269 --> 00:33:35,360
banging on that door in the same way gee

970
00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:37,279
why are these skeptics why can't they

971
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:39,919
just see here's more

972
00:33:44,789 --> 00:33:42,559
undeniable evidence here's dean rayden

973
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:44,799
with a six sigma result with

974
00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:46,720
experiments that have been replicated in

975
00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:48,240
labs across the world

976
00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:50,480
why why why won't they believe why do

977
00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:52,240
they believe weird things

978
00:33:59,110 --> 00:33:56,240
and it was only when i started looking

979
00:34:01,590 --> 00:33:59,120
at the possibility that that it is a

980
00:34:04,870 --> 00:34:01,600
social engineering project

981
00:34:05,590 --> 00:34:04,880
that it is intentionally designed that

982
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:05,600
way

983
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:09,040
to prevent us or to limit us

984
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:12,079
from opening up to a large reality

985
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:15,440
of our extended consciousness potential

986
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:17,760
and you know if you really follow the

987
00:34:21,909 --> 00:34:19,760
the logic of that it's kind of similar

988
00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:21,919
to the logic of neo-darwinism

989
00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:23,760
it's like people are a lot easier to

990
00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:26,159
control if they believe that their life

991
00:34:29,270 --> 00:34:27,599
is meaningless

992
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:29,280
if they believe that they're just

993
00:34:33,909 --> 00:34:31,119
biological robots

994
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:33,919
it's it's a better control strategy so

995
00:34:38,710 --> 00:34:35,359
why wouldn't you do that

996
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:38,720
so that is my hypothesis but i or that's

997
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:40,000
my position

998
00:34:43,349 --> 00:34:42,159
but i'm backing it up over and over

999
00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:43,359
again to you

1000
00:34:46,950 --> 00:34:45,760
with evidence stargate clearly shows

1001
00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:46,960
that there's this

1002
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:50,240
invisible college going on it's a joke

1003
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:52,079
no one who's really on the inside

1004
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:53,440
believes this

1005
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:55,679
yet they perpetuate it on the outside

1006
00:34:58,710 --> 00:34:57,280
science media

1007
00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:58,720
you know that's the other thing on this

1008
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:01,359
show again i banged my head against the

1009
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:02,640
wall for years with

1010
00:35:05,829 --> 00:35:04,480
why is this near-death experience

1011
00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:05,839
research

1012
00:35:09,910 --> 00:35:07,839
when it's published with inside the near

1013
00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:09,920
fest experience community

1014
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:11,839
and it's peer-reviewed and it's in the

1015
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:13,520
lancet and it's in

1016
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:15,520
you know it's done by medical

1017
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:16,640
professionals

1018
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:18,480
why does it come through the science

1019
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:21,200
media completely

1020
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:24,560
all skeptical you know why

1021
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:26,880
this is all you know not real kind of

1022
00:35:31,829 --> 00:35:27,680
stuff

1023
00:35:33,270 --> 00:35:31,839
it's orchestrated it's done on purpose

1024
00:35:34,950 --> 00:35:33,280
i i just think that's the nature of

1025
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:34,960
fundamentalism you know

1026
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:37,359
galileo tried to persuade his peers to

1027
00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:38,560
look through the telescope

1028
00:35:41,030 --> 00:35:40,000
but none of them would take a look

1029
00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:41,040
because they knew it would threaten

1030
00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:42,240
their belief system

1031
00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:44,160
i think once you have a belief system

1032
00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:46,000
that explains reality

1033
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:48,880
in a simple and apparently clear way

1034
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:50,079
then it's very important for your

1035
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:52,160
identity it gives you a sense of control

1036
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:53,200
over the world

1037
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:54,800
it gives you a sense of understanding a

1038
00:35:58,069 --> 00:35:56,240
sense of identity

1039
00:35:59,910 --> 00:35:58,079
overall so you don't want to let go of

1040
00:36:01,190 --> 00:35:59,920
that you know things like ndes and side

1041
00:36:03,589 --> 00:36:01,200
phenomena they threaten

1042
00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:03,599
people's worldviews and therefore they

1043
00:36:07,030 --> 00:36:05,520
threaten people's sense of identity

1044
00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:07,040
and they threaten their sense of control

1045
00:36:11,349 --> 00:36:09,040
over the world i think modern science is

1046
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:11,359
a bit like a colonizing enterprise

1047
00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:13,119
and once you've colonized the world you

1048
00:36:16,069 --> 00:36:14,880
have a sense of control over it

1049
00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:16,079
and you know what you don't let go of

1050
00:36:20,310 --> 00:36:18,000
that control it's very powerful

1051
00:36:21,510 --> 00:36:20,320
so you know these fundamental scientists

1052
00:36:22,630 --> 00:36:21,520
they react just like religious

1053
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:22,640
fundamentalists

1054
00:36:25,829 --> 00:36:24,960
they won't consider any information

1055
00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:25,839
which um

1056
00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:28,400
you know which damages their worldview

1057
00:36:31,589 --> 00:36:29,520
because it would that would damage their

1058
00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:31,599
sense of identity

1059
00:36:36,550 --> 00:36:35,119
i think it's simple well i i don't think

1060
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:36,560
it's as simple as that

1061
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:38,800
and i keep giving you i keep piling on

1062
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:41,200
the evidence you know clearly

1063
00:36:45,349 --> 00:36:42,640
give me some evidence give me some more

1064
00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:45,359
evidence stargate for example

1065
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:47,440
so sorry stargate well for example who

1066
00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:48,720
who is doing the controlling

1067
00:36:52,950 --> 00:36:50,480
who are the people who are controlling

1068
00:36:54,790 --> 00:36:52,960
us you jumped questions you jumped

1069
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:54,800
issues first you wanted of course you

1070
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:55,920
wanted evidence

1071
00:36:59,349 --> 00:36:58,000
so because here you know the other point

1072
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:59,359
of evidence and people who listen to the

1073
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:00,240
show all the time are

1074
00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:02,880
absolutely sick and tired of this story

1075
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:03,760
but i don't care

1076
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:04,800
gotta repeat it because you haven't

1077
00:37:07,589 --> 00:37:06,160
heard it because i threw it out there

1078
00:37:08,310 --> 00:37:07,599
and you i'm not interested in that not

1079
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:08,320
interested in that

1080
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:10,880
so gloria steinem the story about gloria

1081
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:12,000
stem i'll make it really quick because

1082
00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:13,119
the audience has heard this so many

1083
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:13,680
times

1084
00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:15,920
you know the number one person

1085
00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:17,440
identified with the women's movement in

1086
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:19,760
the u.s and probably in the world

1087
00:37:22,790 --> 00:37:21,599
and you know we come to find out that

1088
00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:22,800
she's cia

1089
00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:25,040
and she's not cia like she started the

1090
00:37:27,589 --> 00:37:26,800
women's movement and then the cia got in

1091
00:37:29,910 --> 00:37:27,599
there to

1092
00:37:30,630 --> 00:37:29,920
kind of rig no she's cia from the

1093
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:30,640
beginning

1094
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:32,960
she went to they picked her up from high

1095
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:36,240
school they sent her to college on a cia

1096
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:38,320
fellowship that never existed before or

1097
00:37:42,630 --> 00:37:40,160
after she started doing

1098
00:37:43,750 --> 00:37:42,640
you know to counter the silv the soviet

1099
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,760
uh uh

1100
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:45,599
student movement she was assigned to go

1101
00:37:48,790 --> 00:37:47,440
do that she did that she has all these

1102
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:48,800
and you could read all this you could

1103
00:37:52,310 --> 00:37:50,000
listen to her in her

1104
00:37:54,150 --> 00:37:52,320
own words say yeah i work with the cia

1105
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:54,160
but you know they're really not so bad

1106
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:55,680
and then you find the real story

1107
00:37:58,790 --> 00:37:58,320
as you find her bosses saying hey she's

1108
00:38:01,349 --> 00:37:58,800
great

1109
00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:01,359
so the question there you know and the

1110
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:03,040
latest pushback i always get from that

1111
00:38:05,190 --> 00:38:04,560
is but wasn't the woman's movement a

1112
00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:05,200
good deal

1113
00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:08,560
a good idea i'm like yeah we needed

1114
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:11,520
we needed social change we we we were in

1115
00:38:14,470 --> 00:38:12,880
a very very

1116
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:14,480
backward way in terms of how we looked

1117
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:16,960
at women but what the is the cia

1118
00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:18,160
doing

1119
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:21,760
managing socially engineering

1120
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:24,079
what our beliefs what our social beliefs

1121
00:38:26,790 --> 00:38:24,960
are so

1122
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:26,800
you just start from that data point and

1123
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,800
then you just there's so many data

1124
00:38:32,150 --> 00:38:30,480
points like that i mentioned the doors

1125
00:38:35,910 --> 00:38:32,160
to you we can get into that you know

1126
00:38:37,589 --> 00:38:35,920
jim morrison who shows up hey great

1127
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:37,599
jim morrison you've just never

1128
00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:39,920
investigated it jim morrison

1129
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:41,440
shows up and first of all do you know

1130
00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:43,520
who jim morrison's dad is

1131
00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:45,119
i know he was an admiral in the navy

1132
00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:47,200
wasn't he he was there was it wasn't he

1133
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:49,040
the guy on the boat in the gulf of

1134
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,480
tonkin

1135
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:52,400
maybe i don't know about that yeah he

1136
00:38:57,589 --> 00:38:54,960
was so the gulf of tonkin which is

1137
00:39:01,030 --> 00:38:57,599
the famous false flag admitted false

1138
00:39:03,829 --> 00:39:01,040
flag operation that starts vietnam

1139
00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:03,839
his dad is is that guy and then if you

1140
00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:05,839
look at jim morrison he shows up in

1141
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:08,400
laurel canyon which you know

1142
00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:09,920
mcgowan's done the whole thing of

1143
00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:12,400
exposing that but the thing that just

1144
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:14,640
super high level that people just need

1145
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:15,440
to know is

1146
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:18,640
this guy you're you're a music guy

1147
00:39:26,069 --> 00:39:22,240
imagine this he cannot read

1148
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:26,079
or write music he cannot play

1149
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:28,560
a musical instrument but we are to

1150
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:30,160
believe that he showed up

1151
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:33,599
at day one he had all the songs written

1152
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,880
right which again it is very curious you

1153
00:39:40,790 --> 00:39:38,000
know how he would

1154
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:40,800
show up he's kind of propped up as this

1155
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:43,200
guy put forth fantastic performer and

1156
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:44,240
all the rest of that

1157
00:39:48,550 --> 00:39:47,119
but can't play a musical instrument

1158
00:39:50,950 --> 00:39:48,560
can't read or write music

1159
00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:50,960
and yet wrote all these songs not just

1160
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:52,560
the lyrics to the songs wrote the

1161
00:39:55,589 --> 00:39:53,599
freaking songs

1162
00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:55,599
that is not to be believed that is

1163
00:39:58,470 --> 00:39:56,720
social that

1164
00:40:00,069 --> 00:39:58,480
is another case of socialism as a

1165
00:40:02,230 --> 00:40:00,079
musician i'm a musician

1166
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:02,240
i'm not sure about that because a lot of

1167
00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:04,319
musicians hear songs in the head

1168
00:40:08,309 --> 00:40:06,720
and they don't hear the chords

1169
00:40:09,510 --> 00:40:08,319
necessarily but they hear the melody in

1170
00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:09,520
their heads

1171
00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:10,720
and you know that can happen to people

1172
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:12,160
who are not who don't play musical

1173
00:40:13,829 --> 00:40:12,720
instruments

1174
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:13,839
i think that's what what happened with

1175
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:15,599
jim morrison he heard the basic melodies

1176
00:40:19,670 --> 00:40:17,520
and the words in his head

1177
00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:19,680
and he took them isn't it more likely

1178
00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:21,280
that it's fake

1179
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:26,720
well why would you know why would he be

1180
00:40:31,390 --> 00:40:28,560
brought into laurel canyon then

1181
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:31,400
why would he be i mean he was a he was a

1182
00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:33,200
representative you know he wasn't a part

1183
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:34,960
of the system you know he was a

1184
00:40:38,790 --> 00:40:36,960
a rebel he tried to undermine the whole

1185
00:40:40,550 --> 00:40:38,800
system oh

1186
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:40,560
see you're kind of creeping towards it

1187
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:42,240
steve you ever heard of controlled

1188
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:44,480
opposition

1189
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:46,400
why was gloria steinem why was gloria

1190
00:40:49,109 --> 00:40:48,079
stein so you go back to the gloria

1191
00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:49,119
steinem story right

1192
00:40:52,390 --> 00:40:50,800
that's all true right you can verify

1193
00:40:53,829 --> 00:40:52,400
that if you want we can pause the video

1194
00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:53,839
and you can go watch the video of her

1195
00:40:59,270 --> 00:40:58,000
saying that why did the cia do that

1196
00:41:01,109 --> 00:40:59,280
because they wanted to infiltrate the

1197
00:41:03,109 --> 00:41:01,119
women's movement presumably

1198
00:41:04,950 --> 00:41:03,119
no they it's not infiltrate right

1199
00:41:06,069 --> 00:41:04,960
because it's not like the women's

1200
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:06,079
movement

1201
00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:08,800
gloria starringham started her own thing

1202
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:10,240
under cia direction

1203
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:13,760
right yeah which well i mean she's just

1204
00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:14,800
one example i mean the women's

1205
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:16,640
movement's been underway since the 18th

1206
00:41:20,309 --> 00:41:17,280
century

1207
00:41:23,109 --> 00:41:20,319
you know i mean so why is the cia

1208
00:41:25,589 --> 00:41:23,119
why is the cia who is number one gloria

1209
00:41:29,510 --> 00:41:25,599
steinem who's behind gloria steinem cia

1210
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:29,520
why i don't know i think maybe they did

1211
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:30,720
just want to infiltrate the movement i

1212
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:31,920
think there were lots of other prominent

1213
00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:33,200
figures in the women's movement and they

1214
00:41:35,190 --> 00:41:34,640
wanted to get you know see what was

1215
00:41:39,910 --> 00:41:35,200
going on

1216
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:39,920
maybe they wanted to direct it

1217
00:41:45,349 --> 00:41:43,280
and control it if you were in charge

1218
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:45,359
of the world and somebody has to be in

1219
00:41:50,790 --> 00:41:47,200
charge would you have an

1220
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:50,800
interest in kind of influencing the way

1221
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:53,280
things went

1222
00:41:59,589 --> 00:41:57,040
presumably yeah so

1223
00:42:02,069 --> 00:41:59,599
the explanation is no more than that so

1224
00:42:03,589 --> 00:42:02,079
you know you see a movement going on

1225
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:03,599
and you want to get in front of it you

1226
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:04,880
want to make sure that you have the

1227
00:42:09,270 --> 00:42:06,000
ability

1228
00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:09,280
to influence it and control it so

1229
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:11,359
you see the 60s and you see the music

1230
00:42:15,829 --> 00:42:12,640
scene you see these

1231
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:15,839
students and you know you don't want a

1232
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:16,400
thousand

1233
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:19,760
kent states so you know what what do you

1234
00:42:23,910 --> 00:42:21,200
want you want to have

1235
00:42:24,470 --> 00:42:23,920
a foot in the door there so you know you

1236
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:24,480
invent

1237
00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:26,880
this stuff and the same thing with with

1238
00:42:29,109 --> 00:42:27,760
gloria steinem

1239
00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:29,119
but all that you know as all this

1240
00:42:35,190 --> 00:42:31,520
relates to your book it's that

1241
00:42:38,309 --> 00:42:35,200
social engineering is always in play

1242
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:38,319
so my conclusion from

1243
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:40,720
again the mk ultra stuff and the

1244
00:42:44,630 --> 00:42:42,319
stargate stuff is

1245
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:44,640
they're hitting you in the face with

1246
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:46,480
invisible college

1247
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:49,680
and you have to make the leap to social

1248
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:50,640
engineering

1249
00:42:54,230 --> 00:42:53,280
but if you so that's our we're going to

1250
00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:54,240
debate this

1251
00:42:58,710 --> 00:42:56,000
you know because that's my debate my

1252
00:43:02,270 --> 00:42:58,720
debate is my point is you got your book

1253
00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:02,280
wrong it's not that science needs

1254
00:43:07,349 --> 00:43:03,760
spirituality

1255
00:43:11,190 --> 00:43:07,359
science is doing everything it can

1256
00:43:13,589 --> 00:43:11,200
to keep from spirituality

1257
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:13,599
infiltrating where they're trying to go

1258
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:15,200
they've done a pretty damn good job

1259
00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:16,640
because like you alluded to

1260
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:20,400
a hundred years ago niels bohr and max

1261
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:22,400
planck and everybody at schrodinger they

1262
00:43:27,190 --> 00:43:24,560
all said consciousness is fundamental

1263
00:43:28,550 --> 00:43:27,200
i mean we knew that for a hundred years

1264
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:28,560
yeah

1265
00:43:32,950 --> 00:43:31,200
but i mean materialism really began in

1266
00:43:35,750 --> 00:43:32,960
towards the end of the 19th century

1267
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:35,760
after darwin's theory of evolution once

1268
00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:36,480
the religious

1269
00:43:39,510 --> 00:43:38,400
worldview no longer seemed valid or

1270
00:43:41,270 --> 00:43:39,520
viable

1271
00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:41,280
so scientists began to realize that they

1272
00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:43,280
could not just scientists but kind of

1273
00:43:47,109 --> 00:43:44,880
intellectuals began to realize that they

1274
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:47,119
could explain the world

1275
00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:49,200
and they could explain human behavior in

1276
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:50,960
purely physicalist terms

1277
00:43:54,150 --> 00:43:52,880
so they didn't need any supernatural

1278
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:54,160
explanations they didn't need any

1279
00:43:56,950 --> 00:43:54,960
biblical

1280
00:43:58,630 --> 00:43:56,960
or mythical explanations of the world

1281
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:58,640
but it was a gradual process i mean

1282
00:44:02,710 --> 00:44:00,560
i think materialism really began to take

1283
00:44:04,069 --> 00:44:02,720
hold after the first world war

1284
00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:04,079
maybe it's because of the sheer

1285
00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:06,560
destruction and damage of the

1286
00:44:09,589 --> 00:44:08,000
of the first world war people didn't

1287
00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:09,599
believe in god anymore

1288
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,440
and there was kind of an impulse to to

1289
00:44:15,829 --> 00:44:13,280
make things simple to simplify things

1290
00:44:17,589 --> 00:44:15,839
take things down to their basic essence

1291
00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:17,599
so you had like trends like behaviorism

1292
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:20,480
in psychology which disregarded

1293
00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:23,280
human experience and human consciousness

1294
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:24,160
you had the

1295
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:26,480
the school of logical positivism in

1296
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:28,000
philosophy which did a similar thing

1297
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:29,760
which kind of just disregarded

1298
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:32,960
any metaphysical questions so what i'm

1299
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:33,520
saying this

1300
00:44:37,430 --> 00:44:35,200
is that you can sort of trace

1301
00:44:38,790 --> 00:44:37,440
materialism to historical factors

1302
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:38,800
cultural factors

1303
00:44:43,190 --> 00:44:40,960
which are not necessarily linked to you

1304
00:44:44,550 --> 00:44:43,200
know the social engineering process

1305
00:44:46,230 --> 00:44:44,560
i mean you could you could say i mean do

1306
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:46,240
you think that the the 19th century

1307
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:48,480
victorians who initiated materialism

1308
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:50,400
were part of some was that the beginning

1309
00:44:55,910 --> 00:44:53,280
of a social engineering project

1310
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:55,920
no i mean i think the one thing i think

1311
00:45:01,109 --> 00:44:56,960
that uh

1312
00:45:01,589 --> 00:45:01,119
this is always in play and it's in play

1313
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:01,599
to

1314
00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:04,960
a lesser degree and it's different

1315
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:06,960
at different times i think it's

1316
00:45:11,349 --> 00:45:08,720
completely wrong to

1317
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:11,359
interpret it as some smooth line that

1318
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:13,520
always moves in one direction

1319
00:45:18,550 --> 00:45:16,960
but yeah so i get you in the church

1320
00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:18,560
thing you know the whole church thing

1321
00:45:23,190 --> 00:45:21,520
you you cannot exclude that from another

1322
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:23,200
way of controlling

1323
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:24,560
you know if you just look at the at the

1324
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:26,240
super high level

1325
00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:29,040
right people are having spiritually

1326
00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:32,240
transformative experiences like you'd

1327
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:34,880
document so wonderfully in some of your

1328
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:36,000
books

1329
00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:39,280
and then what is the role of religion

1330
00:45:42,790 --> 00:45:41,440
well it's to serve as uh immediately

1331
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:42,800
jump in there and be the intermediary

1332
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:44,400
and say hey wait steve

1333
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:46,160
let me tell you let me tell you how to

1334
00:45:49,589 --> 00:45:48,000
interpret that because i don't want you

1335
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:49,599
going on your own and

1336
00:45:53,270 --> 00:45:51,839
figuring out what that means i'll tell

1337
00:45:56,550 --> 00:45:53,280
you and you know

1338
00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:56,560
pay me money pray to god be afraid

1339
00:46:00,150 --> 00:45:58,319
let me make you really afraid of death

1340
00:46:01,910 --> 00:46:00,160
let me make you really guilty

1341
00:46:03,349 --> 00:46:01,920
and all these other things i mean that's

1342
00:46:06,309 --> 00:46:03,359
another

1343
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:06,319
control matrix kind of thing yeah and

1344
00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:07,680
you know that science does the same of

1345
00:46:10,950 --> 00:46:09,440
course so science says so you know

1346
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:10,960
mainstream psychiatry says you know

1347
00:46:14,790 --> 00:46:12,560
these are not spiritual experiences

1348
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:14,800
these are pathological experiences these

1349
00:46:17,349 --> 00:46:16,480
are aberrational experiences here's some

1350
00:46:20,390 --> 00:46:17,359
medication

1351
00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:20,400
to control these experiences so yeah i

1352
00:46:23,829 --> 00:46:22,560
i accept that you know i think both

1353
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:23,839
science and religion

1354
00:46:28,069 --> 00:46:26,160
control these anomalous experiences and

1355
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:28,079
they try to explain them and take credit

1356
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:29,040
for them

1357
00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:31,839
um in their own fashions so yeah i can

1358
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:33,040
see that and i think there's certainly a

1359
00:46:37,870 --> 00:46:34,960
problem in our culture with them

1360
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:37,880
the pathology pathology sorry can i say

1361
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:39,440
pathologization

1362
00:46:43,030 --> 00:46:41,440
of um higher states of consciousness and

1363
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:43,040
spiritual experiences

1364
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:45,599
a lot of that does come from psychiatry

1365
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:47,839
um from mainstream ideas about

1366
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:50,480
uh mental illness seeing mental illness

1367
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:51,200
as a

1368
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:53,200
physical issue rather kind of kind of

1369
00:46:58,230 --> 00:46:54,960
mental or spiritual issue

1370
00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:58,240
so i think that that's a real problem

1371
00:47:01,670 --> 00:47:00,319
and where are you going with some of

1372
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:01,680
your work you know people need to know

1373
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:02,880
you're also

1374
00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:05,760
a poet which i think is super cool you

1375
00:47:09,589 --> 00:47:06,800
mentioned your

1376
00:47:11,109 --> 00:47:09,599
music background so i i don't want to

1377
00:47:13,589 --> 00:47:11,119
just be

1378
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:13,599
hammering on this one book because you

1379
00:47:18,710 --> 00:47:15,760
really have a larger

1380
00:47:19,990 --> 00:47:18,720
kind of body of work and body of ideas

1381
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:20,000
that you're kind of putting forth that

1382
00:47:23,910 --> 00:47:21,839
i'm very much

1383
00:47:26,549 --> 00:47:23,920
you know grateful that you're out there

1384
00:47:28,790 --> 00:47:26,559
doing this kind of stuff

1385
00:47:31,030 --> 00:47:28,800
what has been your work up to this point

1386
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:31,040
in terms of understanding these

1387
00:47:35,670 --> 00:47:33,280
spiritually transformative experiences

1388
00:47:38,069 --> 00:47:35,680
and how they're kind of making their way

1389
00:47:39,670 --> 00:47:38,079
into people's lives

1390
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:39,680
well i interpret it in terms of

1391
00:47:43,589 --> 00:47:41,520
evolution i've always been interested in

1392
00:47:45,910 --> 00:47:43,599
the evolution of consciousness

1393
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:45,920
and i see my own work fundamentally as

1394
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:47,520
an attempt to contribute to the

1395
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:49,599
evolution of human consciousness

1396
00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:52,000
as an attempt to facilitate an

1397
00:47:56,230 --> 00:47:53,119
evolutionary leap

1398
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:56,240
in consciousness so i mean i've examined

1399
00:47:58,390 --> 00:47:56,800
um

1400
00:48:01,349 --> 00:47:58,400
awakening experiences which are

1401
00:48:03,750 --> 00:48:01,359
temporary uh spiritual experiences when

1402
00:48:06,150 --> 00:48:03,760
our awareness expands and intensifies

1403
00:48:08,309 --> 00:48:06,160
and we feel a sense of oneness with the

1404
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:08,319
universe or with other human beings

1405
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:10,640
and i've also investigated permanent

1406
00:48:12,790 --> 00:48:12,240
transformations when people seem to

1407
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:12,800
shift

1408
00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:16,240
into a permanent ongoing higher state

1409
00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:19,520
i call that shift into wakefulness and

1410
00:48:22,950 --> 00:48:21,359
one thing i've become more interested in

1411
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:22,960
over the years is

1412
00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:26,160
the link between psychological turmoil

1413
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:29,200
and the shift into wakefulness so i

1414
00:48:31,990 --> 00:48:31,040
found that it's quite common or it's not

1415
00:48:33,349 --> 00:48:32,000
uncommon

1416
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:33,359
for people who go through intense

1417
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:35,200
psychological turmoil

1418
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:37,440
due to bereavement maybe a diagnosis

1419
00:48:40,630 --> 00:48:38,480
with cancer

1420
00:48:42,390 --> 00:48:40,640
maybe a period of addiction or intense

1421
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:42,400
stress or depression

1422
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:44,400
it's not uncommon for people to shift

1423
00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:46,800
into a new state of being

1424
00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:48,400
in the midst of that kind of turmoil or

1425
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:49,920
after that kind of turmoil

1426
00:48:52,950 --> 00:48:51,440
it's almost as if there is a latent

1427
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:52,960
higher self

1428
00:48:57,430 --> 00:48:55,520
in some people which is waiting for the

1429
00:49:00,150 --> 00:48:57,440
opportunity to emerge

1430
00:49:01,670 --> 00:49:00,160
and when the the normal ego breaks down

1431
00:49:02,710 --> 00:49:01,680
in the midst of intense turmoil and

1432
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:02,720
stress

1433
00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:04,160
then there seems to be an opportunity

1434
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:07,040
for this latent higher cell to emerge

1435
00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:08,960
and that seems to be happening quite a

1436
00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:10,640
lot you know i've met many people who've

1437
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:12,240
gone through that shift

1438
00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:14,000
and they feel literally like they're a

1439
00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:16,240
different person in the same body

1440
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:17,760
you know they they look at initially

1441
00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:18,880
they look at themselves in the mirror

1442
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:20,160
and don't recognize themselves because

1443
00:49:24,150 --> 00:49:22,160
they become a different person

1444
00:49:25,670 --> 00:49:24,160
um and that again i think that is

1445
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:25,680
connected to evolution it's almost as if

1446
00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:28,000
there is an unfolding of a new

1447
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:31,599
human identity a new human state

1448
00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:34,000
which is manifesting itself in more and

1449
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:35,359
more people

1450
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:37,520
i think it's manifesting itself in

1451
00:49:41,430 --> 00:49:38,400
temporary

1452
00:49:43,589 --> 00:49:41,440
spiritual experiences but also

1453
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:43,599
in this unfolding of a latent higher

1454
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:44,640
self

1455
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:46,640
which i think is probably the next stage

1456
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:48,000
in the um

1457
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:49,760
in the unfolding of human consciousness

1458
00:49:54,230 --> 00:49:51,599
overall

1459
00:49:56,150 --> 00:49:54,240
let's talk about tully for a minute as i

1460
00:49:56,549 --> 00:49:56,160
mentioned before i have a lot of respect

1461
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:56,559
and

1462
00:50:02,710 --> 00:50:00,240
has been

1463
00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:02,720
your uh relationship with him and what

1464
00:50:06,390 --> 00:50:03,599
have you

1465
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:06,400
learned and how has that influenced your

1466
00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:07,680
work i think he wrote the

1467
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:09,359
the forward of the introduction to this

1468
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:11,200
latest book did he not

1469
00:50:14,150 --> 00:50:12,319
yeah that's right he's written the

1470
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:14,160
forward to three of my books now because

1471
00:50:17,270 --> 00:50:15,520
i've had three books published through

1472
00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:17,280
his um publishing imprint

1473
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:20,480
echotel editions editions

1474
00:50:24,549 --> 00:50:23,440
um i got in contact with him about 15

1475
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:24,559
years ago

1476
00:50:30,710 --> 00:50:27,680
when i wrote a book called the fall um

1477
00:50:31,750 --> 00:50:30,720
my book the fall is largely an

1478
00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:31,760
examination

1479
00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:34,079
of human history archaeology and

1480
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:35,359
anthropology

1481
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:36,800
and it's about the unfolding of human

1482
00:50:39,750 --> 00:50:38,240
consciousness through history through

1483
00:50:41,910 --> 00:50:39,760
human history

1484
00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:41,920
and i suggest that the myth of the fall

1485
00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:43,440
which a lot of cultures have

1486
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:45,920
is based on a real event and the real

1487
00:50:48,790 --> 00:50:47,280
event was the

1488
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:48,800
emergence of a heightened state of

1489
00:50:53,829 --> 00:50:51,599
individuality in some humans

1490
00:50:55,109 --> 00:50:53,839
a new sense of separateness a new sense

1491
00:50:56,950 --> 00:50:55,119
of duality

1492
00:50:58,150 --> 00:50:56,960
in certain human beings and that was

1493
00:51:00,630 --> 00:50:58,160
linked to the you know

1494
00:51:01,990 --> 00:51:00,640
the emergence of endemic warfare

1495
00:51:03,910 --> 00:51:02,000
patriarchy

1496
00:51:05,109 --> 00:51:03,920
monotheistic religion and also

1497
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:05,119
technological developments

1498
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:08,400
and so on but i sent the book to eckhart

1499
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:09,440
because i thought it might interest him

1500
00:51:12,470 --> 00:51:10,559
i'd read the power of now

1501
00:51:14,470 --> 00:51:12,480
and i thought he might be interested so

1502
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:14,480
i sent the book to his office and he got

1503
00:51:18,150 --> 00:51:15,680
got in contact with me a few months

1504
00:51:19,349 --> 00:51:18,160
later and said i really like this book

1505
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:19,359
it's fantastic i want to help you

1506
00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:20,400
promote it

1507
00:51:23,670 --> 00:51:22,000
i'll give you an endorsement and uh

1508
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:23,680
we'll do an interview about it i thought

1509
00:51:25,670 --> 00:51:24,400
fantastic

1510
00:51:27,589 --> 00:51:25,680
just what uh you know just what every

1511
00:51:29,829 --> 00:51:27,599
author wants

1512
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:29,839
and so we after that we became friends i

1513
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:31,680
went to canada to do an interview for

1514
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:34,319
his uh internet tv station

1515
00:51:37,670 --> 00:51:36,240
and we tend to meet up whenever he's in

1516
00:51:39,990 --> 00:51:37,680
england um

1517
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:40,000
sometimes in america i met him a couple

1518
00:51:44,150 --> 00:51:42,000
of years ago in los angeles

1519
00:51:45,270 --> 00:51:44,160
but yeah he's just basically you know

1520
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:45,280
like a lot of

1521
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:48,079
spiritually awakened people he's very

1522
00:51:51,510 --> 00:51:48,960
ordinary

1523
00:51:53,349 --> 00:51:51,520
you know there's nothing you know

1524
00:51:56,630 --> 00:51:53,359
extraordinary about him

1525
00:51:59,349 --> 00:51:56,640
he's just very simple i've met a few

1526
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:59,359
spiritually awakened people people who

1527
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:01,520
are awakened to a very intense degree

1528
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:02,800
and there's something incredibly simple

1529
00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:04,160
about them there's really nothing to

1530
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:04,960
them

1531
00:52:08,230 --> 00:52:06,480
you meet some human beings you think wow

1532
00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:08,240
these these people are so complex

1533
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:09,520
i can't understand them it takes you a

1534
00:52:13,510 --> 00:52:11,440
while to work people out

1535
00:52:14,630 --> 00:52:13,520
but with somebody like eckhart you know

1536
00:52:16,630 --> 00:52:14,640
there's nothing there you just

1537
00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:16,640
work him out you understand him you see

1538
00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:18,720
through him straight away

1539
00:52:24,069 --> 00:52:22,480
and he has a tremendous quality of

1540
00:52:25,270 --> 00:52:24,079
stillness about him if you spend time in

1541
00:52:28,549 --> 00:52:25,280
his company

1542
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:28,559
you naturally slow down you naturally

1543
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:30,720
tune into his stillness

1544
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:32,880
so it's a great experience to be in his

1545
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:34,160
company

1546
00:52:38,390 --> 00:52:35,680
and i think a lot of people experience

1547
00:52:40,230 --> 00:52:38,400
that his talks as well you know this

1548
00:52:42,870 --> 00:52:40,240
he once said to me that when he gives

1549
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:42,880
talks it's not so much what he actually

1550
00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:43,599
says

1551
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:46,160
it's the feeling which people pick up on

1552
00:52:49,589 --> 00:52:47,200
and this sense of

1553
00:52:52,230 --> 00:52:49,599
stillness and presence which builds up

1554
00:52:54,870 --> 00:52:52,240
during the course of the evening

1555
00:52:57,030 --> 00:52:54,880
has that been a part of your spiritual

1556
00:52:59,430 --> 00:52:57,040
development and growth or not so much i

1557
00:53:02,549 --> 00:52:59,440
mean i'm totally cool with the idea that

1558
00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:02,559
you know you just have this kind of

1559
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:04,880
friendship with him yeah not so much

1560
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:06,400
really because i think my own spiritual

1561
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:08,240
journey began

1562
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:10,400
uh before i met him before i encountered

1563
00:53:13,349 --> 00:53:12,480
his books so i was already kind of set

1564
00:53:14,710 --> 00:53:13,359
in my

1565
00:53:16,470 --> 00:53:14,720
i think my own spiritual development

1566
00:53:19,030 --> 00:53:16,480
occurred when i was younger

1567
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:19,040
and um yeah so i don't think i've been

1568
00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:20,559
sort of especially

1569
00:53:23,750 --> 00:53:22,160
helped in my spiritual development by

1570
00:53:25,589 --> 00:53:23,760
him but i've been

1571
00:53:26,950 --> 00:53:25,599
certainly i've been especially helps in

1572
00:53:30,870 --> 00:53:26,960
my work

1573
00:53:33,589 --> 00:53:30,880
and through his um for his support

1574
00:53:35,750 --> 00:53:33,599
yeah i had a my main spiritual teacher

1575
00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:35,760
was a guy called russell williams

1576
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:38,480
and who was a spiritual teacher here in

1577
00:53:41,990 --> 00:53:39,280
manchester

1578
00:53:43,270 --> 00:53:42,000
in england where i live and he was

1579
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:43,280
similar to eckhart in some ways he was

1580
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:45,839
very ordinary very simple

1581
00:53:49,990 --> 00:53:48,720
and he died three years ago at the age

1582
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:50,000
of 96

1583
00:53:53,109 --> 00:53:51,440
and just three years before his death i

1584
00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:53,119
helped him write his book

1585
00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:55,040
and he only published one book in his

1586
00:54:00,309 --> 00:53:56,800
whole lifetime he was probably the

1587
00:54:02,390 --> 00:54:00,319
the oldest ever first-time author

1588
00:54:04,549 --> 00:54:02,400
but uh but but like haircut if somebody

1589
00:54:06,069 --> 00:54:04,559
just you spent time in his presence and

1590
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:06,079
there's this kind of radiance that comes

1591
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:08,400
from him and it just settles you down it

1592
00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:10,400
just tunes you in

1593
00:54:14,150 --> 00:54:12,720
and it feels so right to be in these

1594
00:54:17,349 --> 00:54:14,160
people's presence

1595
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:17,359
it takes you beyond separation and

1596
00:54:21,750 --> 00:54:20,800
beyond yourself you know uh it puts you

1597
00:54:23,190 --> 00:54:21,760
in touch with

1598
00:54:24,790 --> 00:54:23,200
the kind of radiance which is part of

1599
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:24,800
their being it just

1600
00:54:29,190 --> 00:54:27,839
spreads to you and um you know and that

1601
00:54:31,430 --> 00:54:29,200
there's a whole sort of indian tradition

1602
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:31,440
of darshan or satsang which is based on

1603
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:32,720
that principle that

1604
00:54:37,109 --> 00:54:35,680
enlightenment spreads to the students of

1605
00:54:39,670 --> 00:54:37,119
the teacher

1606
00:54:41,829 --> 00:54:39,680
so if you had to sum up russell's

1607
00:54:44,549 --> 00:54:41,839
teaching in a couple of sentences

1608
00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:44,559
what would it be yeah well actually i

1609
00:54:47,829 --> 00:54:45,680
wrote a poem

1610
00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:47,839
based on one of his teachings and the

1611
00:54:51,990 --> 00:54:48,799
poem is called

1612
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:52,000
be soft can you pull up the poem

1613
00:54:55,829 --> 00:54:54,960
we can pause a second well it's great

1614
00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:55,839
because um

1615
00:54:59,750 --> 00:54:57,440
he had a really interesting life he was

1616
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,760
um he was actually

1617
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:01,440
you know you've heard about dunkirk in

1618
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:03,520
the second world war of course

1619
00:55:07,990 --> 00:55:06,319
yeah he was there at dunkirk and uh

1620
00:55:08,470 --> 00:55:08,000
helping to sort of ferry the bodies back

1621
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:08,480
to the

1622
00:55:13,990 --> 00:55:12,400
soldiers back to england and um

1623
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:14,000
you know he had an incredibly traumatic

1624
00:55:17,589 --> 00:55:15,839
early life

1625
00:55:19,990 --> 00:55:17,599
orphaned at the age of 11. he had to

1626
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:20,000
start work at age of 11.

1627
00:55:25,589 --> 00:55:22,480
how did you even uh come to know him

1628
00:55:26,950 --> 00:55:25,599
well he was in the local area and uh

1629
00:55:29,190 --> 00:55:26,960
years ago probably about 20 years ago

1630
00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:29,200
and i went to gurjev

1631
00:55:34,069 --> 00:55:32,400
a gift group i was interested in gojiff

1632
00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:34,079
and i got friendly with a guy who used

1633
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:35,520
to go to the group

1634
00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:37,280
and you know go jeff talks about uh

1635
00:55:42,390 --> 00:55:39,040
being awakened and

1636
00:55:44,069 --> 00:55:42,400
how most human beings asleep are asleep

1637
00:55:45,750 --> 00:55:44,079
so i said to my friend um you know have

1638
00:55:46,950 --> 00:55:45,760
you ever have you ever met a man who's

1639
00:55:48,470 --> 00:55:46,960
truly awake

1640
00:55:50,549 --> 00:55:48,480
and he said yeah there's this guy called

1641
00:55:52,309 --> 00:55:50,559
russell he lives a few miles away

1642
00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:52,319
you know he's uh a lot of people think

1643
00:55:55,109 --> 00:55:53,760
he's enlightened

1644
00:55:56,549 --> 00:55:55,119
so that was it it was just a word of

1645
00:55:57,589 --> 00:55:56,559
mouth because he never publicized

1646
00:56:03,430 --> 00:55:57,599
himself

1647
00:56:04,950 --> 00:56:03,440
wrote anything until this book at the

1648
00:56:06,549 --> 00:56:04,960
age of 93.

1649
00:56:08,789 --> 00:56:06,559
so he was kind of like a very very quite

1650
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:08,799
a secretive reclusive teacher

1651
00:56:17,270 --> 00:56:15,910
um okay so shall i read uh be soft the

1652
00:56:20,789 --> 00:56:17,280
poem

1653
00:56:26,870 --> 00:56:23,829
so this is be soft based on russell

1654
00:56:31,990 --> 00:56:30,069
be soft so that your mind doesn't clash

1655
00:56:33,910 --> 00:56:32,000
with reality

1656
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:33,920
and you can absorb your experience with

1657
00:56:38,630 --> 00:56:35,680
ease

1658
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:38,640
be soft so that disappointments and

1659
00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:41,040
insults don't bruise you

1660
00:56:47,430 --> 00:56:43,920
but bounce harmlessly away after your

1661
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:47,440
softness has absorbed their force

1662
00:56:52,630 --> 00:56:50,640
be soft so that thoughts don't turn to

1663
00:56:54,549 --> 00:56:52,640
fixed ideas

1664
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:54,559
and emotions throw through you without

1665
00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:56,400
attaching themselves

1666
00:57:00,470 --> 00:56:58,400
and animosity doesn't longer long enough

1667
00:57:03,510 --> 00:57:00,480
to form a grudge

1668
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:03,520
and pain passes away before turning to

1669
00:57:12,069 --> 00:57:09,190
be soft so that you can bend with the

1670
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:12,079
wind without breaking

1671
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:14,160
and become moist with the rain without

1672
00:57:23,349 --> 00:57:20,630
be soft so that you pass through the

1673
00:57:25,829 --> 00:57:23,359
world without leaving damage

1674
00:57:28,470 --> 00:57:25,839
only the lightest of trails that will

1675
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:28,480
dissolve like a cloud

1676
00:57:35,510 --> 00:57:31,200
and become part of the air that everyone

1677
00:57:39,030 --> 00:57:37,270
he also had a very simple teaching where

1678
00:57:40,870 --> 00:57:39,040
he said that you know everything you do

1679
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:40,880
in your house

1680
00:57:44,069 --> 00:57:42,880
do it with care do it very gently so if

1681
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:44,079
you open a door

1682
00:57:49,589 --> 00:57:46,960
just do it softly as if you are paying

1683
00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:49,599
respect to the doorknob

1684
00:57:53,109 --> 00:57:51,839
as you walk upstairs walk slowly and

1685
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:53,119
gracefully

1686
00:57:56,789 --> 00:57:55,200
you know giving your respect and care to

1687
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:56,799
the banister

1688
00:58:00,789 --> 00:57:58,559
so it's very simple stuff but it's quite

1689
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:00,799
powerful oh well i thought that was just

1690
00:58:04,950 --> 00:58:02,720
an extraordinary poem

1691
00:58:05,750 --> 00:58:04,960
uh you are you're to be congratulated

1692
00:58:08,870 --> 00:58:05,760
that is first

1693
00:58:11,990 --> 00:58:08,880
rate stuff so what was uh

1694
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:12,000
i'm i'm fascinated what was

1695
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:15,119
his departing with you like

1696
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:16,640
how did he feel about the book how did

1697
00:58:24,710 --> 00:58:23,030
well i i had asked him many years ago

1698
00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:24,720
if he would write a book i thought you

1699
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:26,160
know maybe you're getting old now

1700
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:28,720
russell you're 85 or whatever it was

1701
00:58:31,829 --> 00:58:29,920
maybe you should think about leaving a

1702
00:58:33,910 --> 00:58:31,839
record of your teachings

1703
00:58:35,510 --> 00:58:33,920
and he would say no no no you know

1704
00:58:37,270 --> 00:58:35,520
there's no point because

1705
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:37,280
the essence of my teaching is nonverbal

1706
00:58:39,670 --> 00:58:38,480
it's like what we're saying before it's

1707
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:39,680
about feeling

1708
00:58:43,589 --> 00:58:42,240
it's beyond it goes beyond words so

1709
00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:43,599
words will never capture it

1710
00:58:48,789 --> 00:58:46,720
that's what he said but he agreed for us

1711
00:58:51,430 --> 00:58:48,799
to start recording the meetings

1712
00:58:53,270 --> 00:58:51,440
he held meetings twice a week uh we

1713
00:58:54,470 --> 00:58:53,280
started to record them

1714
00:58:56,549 --> 00:58:54,480
so at least we'd have some kind of

1715
00:58:59,589 --> 00:58:56,559
record but

1716
00:59:00,870 --> 00:58:59,599
a few years later when he was 93 he had

1717
00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,880
a health scare

1718
00:59:04,230 --> 00:59:02,319
um i can't remember what it was but he

1719
00:59:05,430 --> 00:59:04,240
said oh maybe you know maybe i should

1720
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:05,440
leave a record so

1721
00:59:10,390 --> 00:59:09,040
let's write a book so

1722
00:59:11,430 --> 00:59:10,400
so i said are you sure he said yeah

1723
00:59:12,710 --> 00:59:11,440
definitely i want to leave something

1724
00:59:14,309 --> 00:59:12,720
behind

1725
00:59:16,069 --> 00:59:14,319
and i may not be around for too much

1726
00:59:17,510 --> 00:59:16,079
longer

1727
00:59:19,270 --> 00:59:17,520
so it was great i spent a few days with

1728
00:59:22,309 --> 00:59:19,280
him recording his life story

1729
00:59:23,990 --> 00:59:22,319
then i typed up some of the meetings um

1730
00:59:27,270 --> 00:59:24,000
i sent the manuscript back to him and he

1731
00:59:30,069 --> 00:59:27,280
corrected corrected it and edited it

1732
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:30,079
and it was great because um it was

1733
00:59:34,230 --> 00:59:32,400
published in 2015

1734
00:59:36,870 --> 00:59:34,240
and in the following three years he

1735
00:59:39,270 --> 00:59:36,880
still met he still held twice

1736
00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:39,280
twice weekly meetings but because the

1737
00:59:43,030 --> 00:59:40,720
book was quite successful people

1738
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:43,040
started to travel from america from

1739
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:43,760
israel

1740
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:46,480
from europe and so on so the meetings

1741
00:59:49,430 --> 00:59:48,240
became very vibrant and full of new

1742
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:49,440
people

1743
00:59:52,710 --> 00:59:50,960
and that seemed to take his teaching up

1744
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:52,720
to a new level you know he was very

1745
00:59:57,430 --> 00:59:54,400
encouraged by the

1746
01:00:00,710 --> 00:59:57,440
by the the new energy which um

1747
01:00:01,990 --> 01:00:00,720
permeated the meetings and uh you know

1748
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:02,000
we thought he was going to live forever

1749
01:00:07,510 --> 01:00:03,440
because he seemed very healthy

1750
01:00:10,549 --> 01:00:08,710
people used to say to him you know how

1751
01:00:12,710 --> 01:00:10,559
come you're so so

1752
01:00:14,309 --> 01:00:12,720
healthy and so vibrant mentally because

1753
01:00:17,109 --> 01:00:14,319
he looked great he looked sort of

1754
01:00:21,589 --> 01:00:17,119
20 or 30 years younger than his age and

1755
01:00:24,789 --> 01:00:23,990
he would say thoughts take up so much

1756
01:00:26,150 --> 01:00:24,799
energy

1757
01:00:28,789 --> 01:00:26,160
you know if you don't think you save so

1758
01:00:30,069 --> 01:00:28,799
much energy great

1759
01:00:32,069 --> 01:00:30,079
so it was great it was it was a great

1760
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:32,079
experience to to spend time with him

1761
01:00:35,190 --> 01:00:34,319
and he died in a very peaceful way you

1762
01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:35,200
know he

1763
01:00:38,470 --> 01:00:37,200
he got leukemia but died within three or

1764
01:00:41,030 --> 01:00:38,480
four weeks

1765
01:00:42,630 --> 01:00:41,040
and uh he was completely at ease with

1766
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:42,640
with the idea of death

1767
01:00:45,990 --> 01:00:44,240
well that's that's wonderful stephen i

1768
01:00:49,430 --> 01:00:46,000
can definitely see how that would have

1769
01:00:50,630 --> 01:00:49,440
informed a lot of your a lot of your

1770
01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:50,640
work and i think it

1771
01:00:57,430 --> 01:00:54,160
completely explains your kind of fold in

1772
01:00:59,990 --> 01:00:57,440
naturally relationship with tully and

1773
01:01:01,349 --> 01:01:00,000
i'm sure on some level totally

1774
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:01,359
recognized you

1775
01:01:06,390 --> 01:01:04,880
and and through you russell as being

1776
01:01:08,150 --> 01:01:06,400
kind of kindred spirits because your

1777
01:01:11,349 --> 01:01:08,160
poem is very

1778
01:01:11,829 --> 01:01:11,359
totally in a lot of ways without being

1779
01:01:15,349 --> 01:01:11,839
that at

1780
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:15,359
all so you know you also have a foot

1781
01:01:19,190 --> 01:01:17,280
in academia as we mentioned at the

1782
01:01:20,950 --> 01:01:19,200
beginning you certainly have

1783
01:01:22,230 --> 01:01:20,960
stellar credentials and have been

1784
01:01:24,549 --> 01:01:22,240
recognized

1785
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:24,559
in your field and publish and all that

1786
01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:25,520
what's that

1787
01:01:29,030 --> 01:01:28,400
like for you that's what you do kind of

1788
01:01:31,030 --> 01:01:29,040
uh for

1789
01:01:33,270 --> 01:01:31,040
for a part of your living you know how

1790
01:01:36,470 --> 01:01:33,280
do you balance those two

1791
01:01:37,670 --> 01:01:36,480
parts of your life it's tricky because

1792
01:01:40,630 --> 01:01:37,680
academia is so

1793
01:01:42,069 --> 01:01:40,640
left brain and it involves a lot of

1794
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:42,079
fairly mundane

1795
01:01:46,630 --> 01:01:44,640
administrative tasks like marking and

1796
01:01:50,230 --> 01:01:46,640
you know doing registers

1797
01:01:51,910 --> 01:01:50,240
uh like evaluating research proposals

1798
01:01:53,589 --> 01:01:51,920
and so sometimes i think why am i doing

1799
01:01:55,510 --> 01:01:53,599
this no surely i should be spending all

1800
01:01:58,950 --> 01:01:55,520
my time writing poetry or

1801
01:01:59,910 --> 01:01:58,960
or writing my other books but one reason

1802
01:02:02,950 --> 01:01:59,920
is because

1803
01:02:05,990 --> 01:02:02,960
i feel like i am influencing

1804
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:06,000
you know the paradigm of our culture in

1805
01:02:09,190 --> 01:02:07,440
in the uk particularly if you're an

1806
01:02:11,109 --> 01:02:09,200
academic you're seen as an expert

1807
01:02:12,870 --> 01:02:11,119
so you get a lot of media attention

1808
01:02:14,390 --> 01:02:12,880
people often contact you to say oh could

1809
01:02:16,789 --> 01:02:14,400
you speak to us

1810
01:02:17,910 --> 01:02:16,799
on the team on the bbc or can you give

1811
01:02:18,870 --> 01:02:17,920
us a quote for this article in the

1812
01:02:20,950 --> 01:02:18,880
magazine

1813
01:02:22,870 --> 01:02:20,960
so it gives you a certain degree of

1814
01:02:24,309 --> 01:02:22,880
kudos which i'm not really interested in

1815
01:02:26,710 --> 01:02:24,319
that for its own sake

1816
01:02:27,829 --> 01:02:26,720
but it helps you know it helps me to

1817
01:02:31,670 --> 01:02:27,839
sort of

1818
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:31,680
to bring an influence into our culture

1819
01:02:35,829 --> 01:02:34,000
and so i think i think you can

1820
01:02:36,950 --> 01:02:35,839
contribute from

1821
01:02:39,270 --> 01:02:36,960
you can contribute to the movement

1822
01:02:40,789 --> 01:02:39,280
towards post materialism from within a

1823
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:40,799
materialistic culture

1824
01:02:46,309 --> 01:02:43,920
from within a materialistic institution

1825
01:02:49,109 --> 01:02:46,319
such as academia so i feel like i've

1826
01:02:50,789 --> 01:02:49,119
kind of infiltrated the institution

1827
01:02:52,870 --> 01:02:50,799
and i'm trying to bring about some

1828
01:02:57,190 --> 01:02:52,880
change internally

1829
01:03:05,270 --> 01:03:00,549
agreements movement although i'm not

1830
01:03:10,789 --> 01:03:08,069
got it got it good i understand the

1831
01:03:14,390 --> 01:03:13,910
um well it's uh it's been terrific what

1832
01:03:18,789 --> 01:03:14,400
are you

1833
01:03:20,470 --> 01:03:18,799
what's coming up next

1834
01:03:22,390 --> 01:03:20,480
i've got a new book coming out later

1835
01:03:23,910 --> 01:03:22,400
this year called extraordinary

1836
01:03:25,750 --> 01:03:23,920
awakenings

1837
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:25,760
and it's based on my recent research

1838
01:03:28,069 --> 01:03:27,119
into the kind of thing i was talking

1839
01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:28,079
about earlier the

1840
01:03:32,470 --> 01:03:29,760
extraordinary transformation that could

1841
01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:32,480
occur in the midst of intense suffering

1842
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:34,160
so i've interviewed a lot of prisoners

1843
01:03:40,549 --> 01:03:36,079
who've had spiritual awakenings

1844
01:03:43,270 --> 01:03:40,559
and also you know people who've um

1845
01:03:44,950 --> 01:03:43,280
recovered from cancer people have been

1846
01:03:47,109 --> 01:03:44,960
you know long-term drug addicts

1847
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:47,119
and alcoholics too so it's been quite

1848
01:03:49,670 --> 01:03:48,480
remarkable to

1849
01:03:51,589 --> 01:03:49,680
the interview a lot of people who've

1850
01:03:53,109 --> 01:03:51,599
undergone undergone this experience

1851
01:03:55,029 --> 01:03:53,119
so basically people have been to the

1852
01:03:58,069 --> 01:03:55,039
most extreme

1853
01:04:01,510 --> 01:03:58,079
um you know extreme degrees of human

1854
01:04:04,069 --> 01:04:01,520
suffering have undergone this incredible

1855
01:04:05,990 --> 01:04:04,079
shift into a higher state of awareness

1856
01:04:09,510 --> 01:04:06,000
what do you make of the

1857
01:04:12,069 --> 01:04:09,520
crossover between the physiological

1858
01:04:13,430 --> 01:04:12,079
psychological and spiritual in those

1859
01:04:14,789 --> 01:04:13,440
things because

1860
01:04:16,710 --> 01:04:14,799
you know you'll you'll hear this

1861
01:04:18,069 --> 01:04:16,720
particularly in a lot of different ways

1862
01:04:19,829 --> 01:04:18,079
but like in near-death experience you'll

1863
01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:19,839
hear people have a near-death experience

1864
01:04:23,029 --> 01:04:21,440
and there's a healing involved in it you

1865
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:23,039
know i was just on

1866
01:04:27,670 --> 01:04:25,599
a show union of the unwanted podcast and

1867
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:27,680
uh this one woman

1868
01:04:32,470 --> 01:04:30,079
rosemary was telling about her

1869
01:04:34,150 --> 01:04:32,480
extraordinary near-death experience and

1870
01:04:36,630 --> 01:04:34,160
she was like bargaining at the end she

1871
01:04:38,870 --> 01:04:36,640
goes okay i'll go back but i don't want

1872
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:38,880
any of this cancer thing and i said okay

1873
01:04:42,150 --> 01:04:40,799
so she went back and her cancer was

1874
01:04:44,789 --> 01:04:42,160
completely gone and

1875
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:44,799
her doctors were like well what what how

1876
01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:45,440
is that

1877
01:04:49,910 --> 01:04:48,720
possible so how do how do we understand

1878
01:04:51,829 --> 01:04:49,920
this

1879
01:04:53,270 --> 01:04:51,839
kind of crossover between the physical

1880
01:04:54,630 --> 01:04:53,280
between the material because something

1881
01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:54,640
is going on there

1882
01:04:59,510 --> 01:04:57,760
and the psycho-spiritual

1883
01:05:01,190 --> 01:04:59,520
yeah i found that in my research too you

1884
01:05:04,230 --> 01:05:01,200
know i met a few people who'd gone

1885
01:05:06,829 --> 01:05:04,240
who had chronic medical conditions

1886
01:05:08,309 --> 01:05:06,839
which suddenly disappeared after their

1887
01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:08,319
awakenings um

1888
01:05:12,390 --> 01:05:11,200
and also people who've been addicts or

1889
01:05:14,789 --> 01:05:12,400
alcoholics for a long time

1890
01:05:16,470 --> 01:05:14,799
they've been through a lot of incredibly

1891
01:05:18,549 --> 01:05:16,480
traumatic situations

1892
01:05:20,390 --> 01:05:18,559
one woman had been you know she'd been

1893
01:05:22,230 --> 01:05:20,400
attacked multiple multiple times raped

1894
01:05:24,390 --> 01:05:22,240
many times and so forth

1895
01:05:25,990 --> 01:05:24,400
but she said that once her new identity

1896
01:05:26,950 --> 01:05:26,000
established itself she was free of all

1897
01:05:28,950 --> 01:05:26,960
the trauma

1898
01:05:30,390 --> 01:05:28,960
so it happens on a physical and a mental

1899
01:05:31,910 --> 01:05:30,400
level as well all the mental trauma and

1900
01:05:34,950 --> 01:05:31,920
pain can pass away

1901
01:05:35,750 --> 01:05:34,960
after awakening too i think one way that

1902
01:05:39,029 --> 01:05:35,760
you could explain

1903
01:05:41,109 --> 01:05:39,039
is that a lot of um a lot of illnesses

1904
01:05:42,870 --> 01:05:41,119
are rooted in psychosomatic factors

1905
01:05:44,789 --> 01:05:42,880
they're caused in some way by mental

1906
01:05:46,150 --> 01:05:44,799
attitudes or intentions or mental

1907
01:05:48,309 --> 01:05:46,160
patterns

1908
01:05:49,349 --> 01:05:48,319
so once a person shifts to a different

1909
01:05:52,390 --> 01:05:49,359
identity

1910
01:05:53,990 --> 01:05:52,400
they take on a new mind and that new

1911
01:05:55,589 --> 01:05:54,000
mind doesn't carry any of the same

1912
01:05:57,270 --> 01:05:55,599
mental patterns or intentions or

1913
01:05:59,510 --> 01:05:57,280
attitudes

1914
01:06:00,870 --> 01:05:59,520
and so so the illnesses were associated

1915
01:06:02,870 --> 01:06:00,880
with the previous identity

1916
01:06:05,029 --> 01:06:02,880
so when a new identity emerges it's free

1917
01:06:07,270 --> 01:06:05,039
from all of those ailments

1918
01:06:08,549 --> 01:06:07,280
so that's one thing but also i think

1919
01:06:10,470 --> 01:06:08,559
consciousness

1920
01:06:12,710 --> 01:06:10,480
or the mind as it manifests itself in

1921
01:06:13,829 --> 01:06:12,720
human beings is so much more powerful

1922
01:06:15,829 --> 01:06:13,839
than the body

1923
01:06:18,309 --> 01:06:15,839
i think the body is an emanation of

1924
01:06:21,510 --> 01:06:18,319
spirit too but it's a kind of like a

1925
01:06:23,589 --> 01:06:21,520
um a less subtle emanation i think mine

1926
01:06:24,870 --> 01:06:23,599
carries fundamental consciousness very

1927
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:24,880
powerfully

1928
01:06:29,670 --> 01:06:27,760
and intensely so the power of the mind

1929
01:06:32,309 --> 01:06:29,680
can affect the body to

1930
01:06:33,910 --> 01:06:32,319
you know tremendous degree and possibly

1931
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:33,920
that explains why

1932
01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:35,440
serious illnesses like cancer can

1933
01:06:39,270 --> 01:06:37,280
suddenly disappear

1934
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:39,280
well our guest again has been the very

1935
01:06:45,510 --> 01:06:42,480
excellent doctor steve taylor who has

1936
01:06:48,309 --> 01:06:45,520
been nice enough to stand

1937
01:06:50,230 --> 01:06:48,319
against some kind of pretty hard ass

1938
01:06:53,029 --> 01:06:50,240
poking for two people that

1939
01:06:54,390 --> 01:06:53,039
pretty much agree on the basics of what

1940
01:06:57,990 --> 01:06:54,400
he's saying but

1941
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:58,000
hey that's kind of my my dick

1942
01:07:01,430 --> 01:06:59,440
life would be so boring if everyone

1943
01:07:04,630 --> 01:07:01,440
agreed that is right

1944
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:04,640
of course visit his website and check

1945
01:07:07,510 --> 01:07:05,039
out

1946
01:07:09,750 --> 01:07:07,520
these books i think he's given you

1947
01:07:12,470 --> 01:07:09,760
enough to

1948
01:07:13,990 --> 01:07:12,480
find that there's going to be probably

1949
01:07:16,710 --> 01:07:14,000
more than one of these that are just

1950
01:07:19,990 --> 01:07:16,720
going to be fascinating to you i'm dying

1951
01:07:20,870 --> 01:07:20,000
to dig into this book on uh russell

1952
01:07:23,270 --> 01:07:20,880
williams sounds

1953
01:07:24,150 --> 01:07:23,280
so fantastic and his personal account

1954
01:07:27,109 --> 01:07:24,160
with him but

1955
01:07:28,950 --> 01:07:27,119
that kind of uh deeper understanding of

1956
01:07:31,109 --> 01:07:28,960
this

1957
01:07:31,990 --> 01:07:31,119
broader spirituality is woven through

1958
01:07:34,150 --> 01:07:32,000
all these books

1959
01:07:35,270 --> 01:07:34,160
steve it's been absolutely terrific

1960
01:07:38,870 --> 01:07:35,280
having you on and i

1961
01:07:40,309 --> 01:07:38,880
i appreciate uh you doing this with me

1962
01:07:41,990 --> 01:07:40,319
thanks alex it's been a pleasure thanks

1963
01:07:43,829 --> 01:07:42,000
a lot thanks again

1964
01:07:45,510 --> 01:07:43,839
to dr steve taylor for joining me today

1965
01:07:47,670 --> 01:07:45,520
on skeptico

1966
01:07:49,670 --> 01:07:47,680
my question to t up from this interview

1967
01:07:51,270 --> 01:07:49,680
is what are your three favorite episodes

1968
01:07:52,390 --> 01:07:51,280
of skeptico that you've heard

1969
01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:52,400
it doesn't matter if you've just

1970
01:07:54,710 --> 01:07:53,839
listened to the last few or if you

1971
01:07:56,390 --> 01:07:54,720
listened to

1972
01:07:58,390 --> 01:07:56,400
hundreds and hundreds of them what are

1973
01:08:01,190 --> 01:07:58,400
your top favorite ones

1974
01:08:02,710 --> 01:08:01,200
what better way to celebrate episode 500

1975
01:08:03,589 --> 01:08:02,720
let me know your thoughts let me hear

1976
01:08:08,829 --> 01:08:03,599
from you